0001 >>JULIE: GOOD AFTERNOON AND WELCOME TO OUR WEBCAST, MAKING FINAL PREPARATION FOR SECTION 508. IT'S BEING HOSTED TODAY BY THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING CENTER, OUR ITTATC, WE CALL IT. I'M JULIE CAROL, AND I'M THE DIRECTOR OF INDUSTRY AND GOVERNMENT RELATIONS FOR ITTATC. I'LL BE MODERATING THIS SESSION TODAY, ALONG WITH MY COLLEAGUE, MICHAEL MORRIS. I'D LIKE TO THANK OUR PANELISTS FOR JOINING US TODAY IN MAKING THE TRANSITION FOR SECTION 508 A SUCCESS FOR US ALL. AS THE DEADLINE PASSES, WE KNOW OUR QUESTIONS ARE MULTIPLYING. IT'S IMPORTANT TO ANSWER AS MANY OF THE LAST-MINUTE QUESTION AS TIME PERMITS AND TO LEAVE YOU WITH THE RECOURSES TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS THAT WE ARE NOT ABLE TO BET TO TODAY. IN JUST A MOMENT, I WILL INTRODUCE OUR PANEL. FIRST, I'D LIKE TO GIVE YOU AN OVERVIEW OF THE FORMAT. WE ARE SCHEDULED TO RUN UNTIL 3 O'CLOCK PM EASTERN STANDARD TIME. WE WILL HEAR FROM EACH OF THE PANELISTS ABOUT THEIR PERSPECTIVE ON 508, WITH A FEW FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS, 0002 AND THEN MICHAEL MORRIS WILL GIVE US AN OVERVIEW OF THE ROLE OF ITTATC IN THIS SECTION 508 IMPLEMENTATION AND WHERE WE GO FROM HERE. THEN AT ABOUT 2 O'CLOCK, WE PLAN TO OPEN IT UP TO QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE, AND THERE ARE FOUR OPTIONS FOR YOU FOR GETTING YOUR QUESTIONS TO US. YOU CAN PHONE IN YOUR QUESTION AT 703-961-9250, EXTENSION 225. YOU CAN FAX YOUR QUESTION TO 703-961-9255. THERE ARE ALSO EMAIL AND CHAT LINKS WHERE YOU ARE ON THE WEBSITE, YOU CAN SUBMIT QUESTIONS THAT WAY IF YOU PREFER. IF YOU HAVE ANY TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES DURING OUR WEBCAST TODAY, YOU CAN CALL OUR TROUBLE LINE, WHICH IS 703-961-9250, EXTENSION 223, AND I WILL BE GIVING OUT THESE NUMBERS AGAIN LATER, SO HAVE YOUR NOTETAKERS READY. KEEP IN MIND, THERE WILL BE A COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF TODAY'S SESSION ON BOTH THE TVWORLDWIDE.COM WEBSITE, AS WELL AS THE ITTATC.ORG WEBSITE, AND THAT WILL INCLUDE COMPLETE BIOS FOR ALL OF OUR SPEAKERS. SO LET US TURN NOW TO OUR PANEL AND GET SOME ADVICE ON SECTION 508. FIRST WE REGRET THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WAS NOT ABLE TO SEND ANYONE TODAY DUE TO A LAST-MINUTE 0003 SCHEDULING CONFLICT, BUT WE HAVE FIVE EXCELLENT PANELISTS, ALL OF WHOM HAVE BEEN WORKING ON SOME ASPECT OF 508 IMPLEMENTATION FOR SOMETIME NOW, AND I THINK WE WILL LEARN A LOT FROM THEM TODAY. OUR FIRST PANELIST HAS BEEN AT THE CENTER OF SECTION 508 IMPLEMENTATION AND PREPARATIONS FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. KEITH THURSTON IS WITH THE OFFICE OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AT GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION, AND KEITH HAS BEEN WORKING ON TECHNOLOGY POLICY AND GUIDANCE FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR MANY YEARS. HE CHAIRS THE JOINT FAR COMMITTEE ON INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AND SO WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN DRAFTING THE FAR REGULATIONS THAT INCORPORATE SECTION 508 INTO GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT. KEITH, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US. >>KEITH: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THESE KIND OF SESSIONS TO GET AS MUCH INFORMATION OUT AS POSSIBLE. GSA HAS, AS YOU KNOW, WORKED ALONG WITH THE ACCESS BOARD IN FORMULATING THE FINAL STANDARDS AND THEN WITH THE FAR REGULATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN OUT, AND THOSE REGULAR LACES ARE CALLING FOR FEDERAL AGENCIES TO EDUCATE THEIR REQUIREMENTS ACTIVITIES TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE BUYING I.T. ARE AWARE OF THE 0004 REQUIREMENTS OF SECTION 508 AND THAT THE, THAT THEY TRAIN THEIR PROCUREMENT OFFICERS AND OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE INVOLVED IN THIS PROCESS. WE HAVE HAD LOTS OF EDUCATIONAL AND OPPORTUNITIES OVER THE LAST YEAR TRYING TO INCREASE THE KNOWLEDGE BASE, AND WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE THAT. THEY HAVE A WEBSITE UP WWW.SECTION 508.GOV. WE CREATED A REPOSITORY FOR INFORMATION AND ACCESS FOR GOVERNMENT INDUSTRY TO DID TO TO HAVE THEIR QUESTIONS ANSWERS. THERE ARE GOING TO BE MORE FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON THAT SITE VETTED BY BOTH GSA AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AS WELL, SO WE HAVE BEEN COLLABORATING ON THE APPROACH THAT WE'LL TAKE IN TRYING TO GET FACTUAL INFORMATION OUT. I THINK MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FOR PEOPLE TO REALIZE WHAT THIS APPLIES TO. IT IS ELECTRONIC AND INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT TERM FOR US IN GOVERNMENT. PREVIOUSLY WE ONLY HAD THE TERM GOVERNMENT INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ACT WE WERE FAMILIAR WITH THE CLINGER-COHEN ACT. IT ADDED FAXES AND COPIERS TO THAT WHEN IT ADDED ELECTRONIC AND INCLUDES THINGS LIKE VIDEO, AUDIO FOR TRAINING PURPOSES, AND AS WELL AS YOUR NORMAL I.T. 0005 THAT YOU THINK OF WITH DESKTOPS, LAPTOPS, SOFTWARE, AND HARDWARE, TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND KIOSK-TYPE SYSTEMS. SO WITH ALL OF THOSE TYPES OF THINGS BEING INVOLVED, IT'S IMPORTANT THAT, WHICH TOUGHS A LOT OF THE PROCUREMENTS IN GOVERNMENT, WE ARE TRYING TO EDUCATE THE PROCUREMENT OFFICERS TO SEE WHAT THEY WANT TO DO TO WATCH OUT FOR SECTION 508 COMPLIANCE AND THEY NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE RIGHT THINGS ARE CALLED FOR AND THE RFP'S, THAT THE APPLICABLE STANDARDS ARE LISTED AND THAT ANY CONTRACT AWARDED AFTER JUNE 25TH IS, HAS GOT 508 IN IT AND HAS PRODUCTS THAT ARE COMPLIANT, PARTIALLY COMPLIANT OR HAS SOME DOCUMENTATION FOR UNDUE BURDEN OR NONAVAILABILITY SO THAT EITHER WE BUY IT OR WE HAVE A GOOD REASON FOR NOT HAVING BOUGHT IT. THOSE REQUIREMENTS ARE OUTLINED IN THE FAR, THE FEDERAL ACQUISITION REGULATIONS. THEY ARE AVAILABLE ON THE SECTION 508 WEBSITE AND IN ADDITION THERE WILL BE MORE EXPLANATORY GUIDELINES PUT UP ON THE SECTION 508 WEBSITE ON SOME CLARIFICATIONS THAT PEOPLE ARE ASKING RELATIVE TO THOSE FAR CITATIONS. THE CONTRACTS THAT ARE IMPACTED ARE ANY NEW CONTRACTS SIGNED AFTER JUNE 21ST, OR 25TH, EXCUSE ME. AND THEN ANY TASK ORDERS OR DELIVERY ORDERS THAT ARE 0006 ISSUED AFTER THAT DATE SO THAT IF YOU ARE ORDERING PRODUCTS OFF OF AN EXISTING CONTRACT USING GSA SCHEDULES, THOSE NEW PROCUREMENTS AFTER JUNE 25TH NEED TO BE COMPLIANT AND NOW IS A GOOD TIME TO EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE JUNE 21ST AND 25TH DATES. THE LAWS EFFECTIVE ON JUNE 21ST IS ANYONE WHO IS DENIED ACCESS TO GOVERNMENT INFORMATION FOR PRODUCTS PROCURED AFTER JUNE 21ST HAS A BASIS FOR COMPLAINING OR FILING A COMPLAINT AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT FOR NONCOMPLIANCE. THE FAR RULE WAS DELAYED IN ITS RELEASE. IT'S EFFECTIVE ON JUNE 25TH. THAT'S A THURSDAY AND A MONDAY SO WE HAVE ADVISED PROCUREMENT OFFICERS NOT TO DO ANYTHING SILLY ON THAT FRIDAY AND THAT THEY MAYBE SHOULD MAKE SURE THAT AFTER JUNE 21ST IS ALSO 508 READY. THANK YOU. I'LL END MY OPENING THERE, AND I'LL PICK UP QUESTIONS WHEN WE FINISH THE REST OF THE PANEL. >>JULIE: KEITH, YOU DID SAY THERE WOULD BE SOME ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THE SECTION 508 WEBSITE. CAN YOU TELL US WHEN? >>KEITH: ANY DAY NOW. I THINK -- 0007 >>JULIE: BEFORE JUNE 25TH? >>KEITH: YES. I BELIEVE WITHIN HOURS AFTER THIS BROADCAST THERE WILL BE INFORMATION POSTED. THIS WILL BE A PRESIDENTIAL EVENT ON JUNE 19TH AND THERE WILL BE UNVEILING OF ADDITIONAL INFORMATION AT THAT TIME. YOU WILL HAVE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THE SITE. >>JULIE: OUR SECOND PANELIST IS SOMEONE WHO MIGHT BE FAMILIAR TO MANY OF YOU. REX LINT IS HERE WITH THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA. HE IS ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR ITAA'S SOFTWARE DIVISION, AND REX ALSO CHAIRS THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATION'S SECTION 508 WORKING GROUP, SO REX HAS BEEN INTIMATELY INVOLVED IN PREPARING FOR SECTION 508 SINCE IT WAS PASSED. REX, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. >>REX: GOOD AFTERNOON, AND THANK YOU FOR THAT NICE INTRODUCTION, JULIE AND THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO BE HERE AND TAKE PLACE IN THIS IMPORTANT DISCUSSION. I WEAR A NUMBER OF HATS IN THE ACCESSIBILITY DOMAIN AND TODAY I'M WEARING MY I.T. INDUSTRY HAT. IT'S INTENDED TO GIVE YOU A VIEW OF THE I.T. INDUSTRY COLLECTIVELY. 0008 IT'S GENERALLY WHERE INDUSTRY IS COMING FROM. I OFFER THESE REMARKS WITH THE INTENT OF PROMOTING SOME UNDERSTANDING AND THAT UNDERSTANDING HOPEFULLY WOULD LEAD TO CONSENSUS. I'D LIKE TO TAKE A MINUTE TO INTRODUCE ITAA. ITAA IS THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA. AND THIS YEAR IT'S CELEBRATING ITS 40TH ANNIVERSARY. IT'S A TRADE ASSOCIATION, IT HAS MORE THAN 500 MEMBERS OF I.T. AND TELECOM COMPANIES AND IT LISTS AMONG THE LARGEST IT COMPANIES IN THE WORLD. MOTOROLA, SUN, COMPAQ, ORACLE TO MAKE A FEW. IT'S ALSO THE INCUBATOR OF THE SMALLEST. NEW STARTUPS AND FIRMS FINALLY GET THEIR ATTENTION TO THE ISSUES THEY NEED. EVEN AN INDEPENDENT CONSULTANT LIKE ME BENEFIT FROM LINKING WITH OTHERS IN THIS BUSINESS. NOW LET'S TALK TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND, THE ACCESSIBILITY OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY. LET'S LOOK AT GENERAL TERMS FIRST. ONE OUT OF FIVE OF US HAS A DISABILITY. ONE OUT OF THREE OF US HAS SOMEONE WE CARE FOR THAT HAS A DISABILITY. MANY OF US, WHETHER WE ARE IN GOVERNMENT, ACADEMIA, OR IN THE I.T. INDUSTRY ITSELF HAVE A VESTED INTEREST 0009 IN SEEING THE SUCCESS OF 508. BUSINESSES CONTINUING TO MOVE MANY OF ITS FUNCTIONS TO THE WEB. THIS PRESENTS A BARRIER TO THOSE OF US WITHOUT ACCESS TO THIS TECHNOLOGY. MANY PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES WILL BE MISSING OUT ON MORE AND MORE OF THE ECONOMY, AND MORE AND MORE OF LIFE. SO CONGRESS DECIDED THAT THE TREMENDOUS BUYING POWER OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL AFFECT THIS CHANGE FOR US, A $37 BILLION MARKET WILL SHIFT THE NATURE OF PRODUCTS NOT ONLY FOR THE GOVERNMENT BUT FOR THE WHOLE MARKETPLACE. THERE IS EVERY EXPECTATION THAT THIS WOULD DRIVE ACCESSIBLE FEATURES INTO PRODUCTS SOLD IN THE GENERAL MARKETPLACE. BOTH INDUSTRY AND THE AGENCIES SHARE A WORRY. THEY SHARE CONCERN THAT THERE WILL BE AN INTERRUPTION OF THE FLOW OF PRODUCTS INTO THE GOVERNMENT MARKET. WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL THE ISSUES THAT WILL IMPACT THE GOVERNMENT MARKET REGARDING THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THIS NEW LAW CAUSES FEWER UNDUE INTERRUPTIONS AS POSSIBLE. THE LAW SPECIFIES THERE WILL BE NO REQUIREMENTS WHEN THE GOVERNMENT BUYS I.T. 0010 FIRST, IT SAYS THAT THE ACCESS BOARD WILL ESTABLISH TECHNICAL REQUIRES FOR PRODUCTS THE GOVERNMENT WILL BUY. WE HAVE BEEN THERE. WE HAVE DONE THAT. NEXT THE FAR COUNSEL WILL DEFINE THE CHANGES TO THE ACQUISITION PROCESS TO INCENTIVIZE THE BUYING OF PRODUCTS THAT WILL HAVE MORE ACCESSIBILITY PRODUCTS, MORE ACCESSIBILITY FEATURES. THEY ARE DONE, TOO. THAT BRINGS US TO THE TEETH IN THIS LAW. 508 GIVES EMPLOYEES AND THE PUBLIC WITHSTANDING WHO HAVE ISSUES WITH I.T. ACQUISITION THAT DOES NOT GIVE THEM ACCESS TO THE INFORMATION THAT OTHERS HAVE, THE CHANCE TO FILE COMPLAINTS AND TO BRING LAWSUITS. FROM INDUSTRY'S PERSPECTIVE, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF POINTS TO NOTE HERE. FIRST IS THE AGENCY THAT GETS SUED, NOT THE PROVIDER OF THE I.T. PRODUCT, AT LEAST IN THE IN THE BEGINNING. SECOND, THE SUIT IS NOT FOR DAMAGES, IT'S FOR ENFORCEMENT. SO THE JUDGE WILL SAY YES YOU DO HAVE TO PROVIDE EQUIPMENT THAT IS ACCESSIBLE IF THERE ARE NO EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES. 0011 THAT DOESN'T MEAN AGENCIES WON'T TRY THEIR DARNEDEST TO STAY OUT OF THE SITES OF COMPLAINANTS. SO WHAT'S INDUSTRY BEEN UP TO? WELL THEY CERTAINLY HAVE PLAYED A ROLE IN THE PROCESS. THEY ARE ON THE ADVISORY COMMIT THEE THAT PROPOSED THE STANDARDS. AND ON THE PROPOSED FAR AS THESE REGULATIONS WERE BEING DRAFTED. INDUSTRY HAS BEEN WORKING WITH GSA AND WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION ON THEIR PROJECTS AIMED AT RAISING THE AWARENESS AND ASSISTING WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF 508 AND WE FINISHED COLLABORATION WITH GSA ON A FORMAT THAT THE INDUSTRY CAN USE TO EXPRESS THE ACCESSIBILITY FEATURES OF THEIR PRODUCTS. SO WHAT DOES INDUSTRY SEE THAT IS STILL NOT QUITE RIGHT? WHAT DOES INDUSTRY DISCUSS IN THEIR SMOKE FILLED ROOMS? ARE THERE STILL SMOKE FILLED ROOMS? FIRST IT'S THE STANDARD BECAUSE INDUSTRY HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO WORRY ABOUT THE ELIMINATING EFFECT THE DESIGN STANDARDS HAS ON THE EVOLUTION OF TECHNOLOGY. BUT THEN IT'S ALSO THE FAR BECAUSE WE SEE THERE ARE 0012 PRESSURES TO ARRIVE AT A CHECK THE BOX DEFINITION OF COMPLIANCE AND THIS HAS THE POTENTIAL TO SHIFT LIABILITY FROM AGENCIES TO VENDORS. IT'S ALSO THE FAR BECAUSE THE INDUSTRY FEELS WITHOUT A MECHANISM TO TEMPER THE MANDATE TO BUY THE MOST ACCESSIBLE PRODUCT ON THE MARKET, SOME WRONG DECISIONS MAY BE MADE. THE FAR DOESN'T POSITION THE NOTION OF EQUIVALENT FACILITATION AS A USEFUL TOOL IN THE PROCUREMENT TOOL BOX. THE I.T. INDUSTRY IS CONCERNED THAT THE DIRECTION OF THE PRODUCTS TO DELIVER THE NEEDED TRAINING TO MAKE TO DEVELOPERS TO MAKE ACCESSIBLE PRODUCTS BE STEERED TOWARD WHAT INDUSTRY FEELS IT NEEDS, BUT BOTTOM LINE, INDUSTRY IS WORRIED THAT THERE WILL BE A HICCUP IN THE PURCHASING PROCESS BROUGHT ON BY 508. INDUSTRY IS COMMITTED TO GO ANYWHERE, TO DO ANYTHING, TO SEE THAT THE TRANSITION TO ACCESSIBLE PRODUCTS PROCEEDS AS SMOOTHLY AS POSSIBLE. SO THAT'S THE SUMMARY, BUT LET'S LOOK INTO THESE ISSUES IN A LITTLE BIT MORE DEPTH. AM I OUT OF TIME YET? NOT QUITE. >>JULIE: CLOSE. >>REX: LET ME SKIP AND PERHAPS JUST TAKE A QUESTION 0013 AT THIS POINT. >>JULIE: REX, YOU MENTIONED THE EQUIVALENT FACILITATION PROCESS. IS INDUSTRY FAMILIAR WITH THAT? WE KEEP HEARING THAT THE STANDARD IS GOING TO SQUELCH THEIR CREATIVITY. ARE THEY NOT FAMILIAR WITH THIS ENFORCEMENT MECHANISM, OR ARE THEY NOT SURE THAT IT WILL WORK? >>REX: WELL, I THINK YOUR ALL THE HOPE IS THAT EQUIVALENT FACILITATION WILL BE THE VEHICLE BY WHICH NEW TECHNOLOGIES CAN BE BROUGHT TO BEAR WHICH WOULD CAUSE A PRODUCT OTHERWISE TO NOT MEET THE STANDARD, BUT EQUIVALENT FACILITATION SAYS IS THAT EVEN THOUGH THE STANDARD SAYS THAT YOU HAVE TO DO THINGS IN THIS WAY, IF YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT WAY OF DOING IT WITH YOUR PRODUCT AND IT STILL MEETS THE PERFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS OF SECTION 508 WHICH SAYS IT'S USABLE BY A PERSON WITH ANY PARTICULAR DISABILITY, THAT THAT PRODUCT SINCE IT DOES GIVE ACCESSIBILITY CAN BE CONSIDERED TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS AS SPECIFIED BY THE ACCESS BOARD. THE DIFFICULTY WE HAVE IS THAT IT'S SOMEWHAT MUDDY, WHETHER OR NOT WE HAD HOPED TO GET SOME CLARIFICATION WHEN THE FAR CAME OUT SAYING HOW EQUIVALENT FACILITATION WAS TO BE INTERPRETED. 0014 THAT CLARIFICATION WAS NOT IN THE FAR, AND WE HAVE ASKED TO HAVE THAT DONE AS A CLARIFICATION TO THE FAR, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, WHAT THE -- WHAT THE RULE SAYS, WHAT THE FAR SAYS IS THAT I CAN QUOTE THAT, I THINK, HERE, THAT THE -- UNLESS AN EXCEPTION APPLIES, ACQUISITION OF ELECTRONIC AND INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY SUPPLIES, SERVICES, ETCETERA MUST MEET THE APPLICABLE STANDARDS AT 36 CFR, PART 1194, WHICH IS THE ACCESS BOARD'S RULES. IT'S HARD TO ARGUE FACILITATION IS NOT A STANDARD. IT'S ALSO POSSIBLE TO ARGUE THAT IT'S NOT AN EXCEPTION SO WE HAD HOPED TO HAVE SOME POSITIONING OF THAT SAYING IT CAN BE USED THE WAY THAT WE READ IT MAINLY AS A WAY OF BRINGING NEW TECHNOLOGIES TO BEAR. >>JULIE: IT SEEMS IN ORDER TO USE EQUIVALENT FACILITATION EFFECTIVELY INDUSTRY WOULD HAVE TO WORK WITH THE DISABLED IN AT THE TIMING PRODUCTS AND DETERMINING WHETHER AN ALTERNATIVE IS REALLY AS ACCEPTABLE AS THE STANDARD PRESCRIBES. IS INDUSTRY IN A POSITION TO DO THAT? IS THAT HAPPENING? >>REX: IT IS HAPPENING. THERE IS A LOT OF PARTNERSHIPS WHICH OFFER DISABILITY 0015 PERSPECTIVES. SOME ARE BUILDING THEIR OWN LABORATORIES IN HOUSE AND MANY HAVE HIRED PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES AS A GENERAL RULE FOR A LONG TIME. >>JULIE: ONE MORE QUESTION, REX. FOR THOSE COMES THAT MIGHT BE SMALLER, MIGHT NOT HAVE LEARNED ABOUT SECTION 508 VERY EARLY ON AS SOME OF THE LARGER ONES DID, CAN YOU MAKE A RECOMMENDATION AS TO THE TYPES OF RESOURCES THAT INDUSTRY HAS FOUND MOST HELPFUL IN PREPARING? >>REX: LET ME SEE, I THINK I DON'T MEAN TO PUT AN ADVERTISEMENT IN HERE, BUT THE ITAA HAS BEEN VERY HELPFUL IN HELPING COMPANIES COLLABORATE AMONGST THEMSELVES IN REACHING SLUICES TO THESE PROBLEMS. THERE IS ALSO A NUMBER OF NEWSPAPER ARTICLES, OF MAGAZINE ARTICLES, AND OF COURSE THE PRIMARY DOCUMENTS THAT COMPRISE 508, WHICH IS, ALL OF WHICH ARE AVAILABLE OFF THE 508.GOV WEBSITE THAT GSA HAS PUT FORWARD. THOSE ARE MANDATORY READING. >>JULIE: THANK YOU. OUR NEXT PANELIST WINS THE AWARD FOR TRAVELING THE AWARD TO BE HERE WITH US. RANDY MARSDEN IS WITH US FROM ALBERTA, CANADA. HE IS THE PRESIDENT OF A DEVELOPER OF ASSISTIVE 0016 TECHNOLOGY AND RANDY IS ALSO VICE PRESIDENT OF THE ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATION WHICH REPRESENTS. >>RANDY: I'M HERE WEARING MY HAT AS THE VICE PRESIDENT OF ATIA. WE ARE A RELATIVELY SMALL ASSOCIATION I THINK COMPARED TO REX'S, THERE IS 75 MEMBERS AND WE ARE ABOUT THREE YEARS OLD, HOWEVER, THAT'S ABOUT DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF COMPANIES FROM FIVE YEARS AGO THAT ARE BUILDING ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY SO IT'S A, VERY MUCH A GROWING AND IMPORTANT FIELD IN TECHNOLOGY. IF YOU THINK OF IT KIND OF ANALOGOUS TO A BUILDING. THE MAINSTREAM ELECTRONIC AND INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES HAVE A BUILDING WHICH HAS THEIR PRODUCT AND SECTION 508 IS ASKING THEM TO PROVIDE A RAMP INTO THE BUILDING. OUR COMPANIES ARE THE ONES WHO WILL BE PROVIDING THE WHEELCHAIRS. THE MAINSTREAM GUYS DON'T NODE TO WORRY ABOUT MAKING WHEELCHAIRS. THAT'S THE KNOWLEDGE OF ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY. WE ARE A FAIRLY YOUNG ORGANIZATION, BUT WE HAVE A CONFERENCE THAT WE PUT ON EVERY YEAR, AND THIS YEAR'S CONFERENCE IS FOCUSED VERY MUCH ON SECTION 508 ISSUES. IT'S IN JANUARY AND YOU CAN FIND, YOU CAN FIND THAT 0017 WEBSITE, MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THAT CONFERENCE AT ATIA.ORG, BUT AS AN ASSOCIATION, WE ARE, WE ARE REALLY PLEASED THAT 508 HAS FACILITATED KIND OF A JOINING TOGETHER OF MAINSTREAM INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY VENDORS AND ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY VENDORS FOR A LONG TIME THERE HAS OFTEN BEEN NOT CLEAR COMMUNICATION CHANNELS BETWEEN THOSE TWO GROUPS, AND WE CALL IT CLUGEING, MEANING CHANGE IT IN SOME WAY THAT'S NOT SUPPORTED IN ORDER TO MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE TO PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES, SO NOW THAT STANDARDS ARE BEING, ARE SET AND THE MAINSTREAM VENDORS ARE LISTENING TO THOSE STANDARDS, IT WILL BE MUCH BETTER AND MUCH EASIER FOR THE ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY VENDORS TO MAKE THOSE PRODUCTS ACCESSIBLE AND IN THE END MAKE MUCH BETTER PRODUCTS FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES UNDER EVERYONE IN GENERAL. SO AS AN ASSOCIATION, WE ARE PUTTING TOGETHER A NUMBER OF PROGRAMS THAT WE THINK WILL HELP OUR COUNTERPARTS IN THE MAINSTREAM WORLD MEET THESE KIND OF ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS. FIRST THING I GUESS YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT, AND MANY OF THE VIEWERS ARE PROBABLY ASKING THEMSELVES THESE QUESTIONS, FIRST OF ALL, COMPATIBILITY TESTING IS UP TO THE VENDOR THEMSELVES, AND SO A LOT OF COMPANIES ARE ASKING OKAY, WHAT IS ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY, WHAT'S 0018 THE RELEVANT ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY I SHOULD BE TESTING WITH. WHERE DO I GET IT. ONCE I GET IT, IF IT DOESN'T WORK, WHO DO I TALK TO, IF IT DOES WORK, HOW DO I DOCUMENT THAT TO PROVE THAT I HAVE TESTED IT. THERE IS A LOT OF THOSE KIND OF QUESTIONS THAT WE FEEL LIKE, AND AS ASSOCIATION OF THE A.T. VENDORS WE CAN HELP WITH SOME OF THOSE ANSWERS. A PILOT PROJECT THAT WE ARE JUST EMBARKING ON, AND THIS IS NOT A PROGRAM THAT'S IN PLACE BUT ONE WE ARE SOLICITING FEEDBACK ON AT THIS TIME IS TO SET UP A COMPATIBILITY TEST LAB THROUGH THE ASSOCIATION WHERE OUR MEMBERS FILL THE LAB WITH THEIR PRODUCTS, ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY PRODUCTS AND THEN MAINSTREAM INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY VENDOR COULD SUBMIT THEIR PRODUCT FOR TESTING TO THAT WILL BE AS AN INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION OF ITS COMPATIBILITY WITH ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY. IT WOULD BE A FEE FOR SERVICE TYPE ARRANGEMENT. IT WOULD NOT BE A SECTION 508 COMPLIANT CERTIFICATION BECAUSE IT'S UNCLEAR EXACTLY WHERE THAT BAR IS, WHAT WE WOULD BE TESTING IS THAT THAT MAINSTREAM PRODUCT IS COMPATIBLE WITH THE ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY PRODUCTS THAT IT NEEDS TO BE USED BY MANY OF THOSE TYPES OF 0019 PEOPLE, SO THIS IS A PILOT STUDY THAT WE ARE EMBARKING ON TO SEE IF THIS IS A SERVICE THAT FIRST OF ALL WOULD BE VALUABLE AND USEFUL TO MAINSTREAM VENDORS, AND SECONDLY, HOW IT COULD HELP OUR OWN MEMBERS GET THEIR PRODUCTS MORE COMPATIBLE WITH THE PRODUCTS THAT ARE OUT THERE AS WELL. >>JULIE: REX, DOES THIS SEEM LIKE SOMETHING YOUR COMPANY WOULD BE INTERESTED IN? >>REX: I THINK THAT WOULD BE GREAT FOR THE SMALLER COMPANIES THAT DON'T HAVE THEIR EXPERTISE IN HOUSE. IT WOULD BE GREAT. >>RANDY: WE ARE GETTING THOSE TYPES OF PROPOSALS FROM PEOPLE RIGHT NOW. HOW DO I TEST WITH IT? I THINK A BIG SERVICE WE CAN OFFER IS THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IT DOESN'T WORK BECAUSE WE ARE THE GUYS THAT MAKE THE STUFF THAT ISN'T WORKING SO WE CAN CONNECT ENGINEER TO ENGINEER, PROGRAMMER TO PROGRAMMER AND SOLVE THE PROBLEM TECHNICALLY IN A PRETTY EFFICIENT MANNER. I'M SAYING WE ARE LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK. I SHOULD GIVE MY EMAIL ADDRESS FOR ANYONE INTERESTED IN GIVING ME SOME FEEDBACK, IT'S RANDY M@A.T. MADENTEC.COM. >>JULIE: THAT WILL BE ON THE BIOS THAT WILL BE 0020 PUBLISHED WITH THE TRANSCRIPT OF TODAY'S SESSION. RANDY, IT SEEMS LIKE TESTING FOR COMPATIBILITY IS A LITTLE LATE IN THE PROCESS. DON'T WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING EARLY ON TO HELP THE I.T. VENDORS UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO TO BE COMPATIBLE? >>RANDY: YES. ABSOLUTELY. YEARS AGO, WE HELPED START AN INITIATIVE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT YOU ARE DISCUSSING CALLED MICROSOFT ACTIVE ACCESSIBILITY. IT'S BASICALLY TOOLS THAT MAINSTREAM VENDORS CAN USE TO ENSURE THAT THEIR PRODUCTS ARE ACCESSIBLE, IF THEY ARE MAKING AN EXECUTABLE APPLICATION, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF WEB ACCESSIBILITY GUIDELINES AND SO ON THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN PUBLISHED AND ARE CONTINUING TO EVOLVE, SO THAT INFORMATION IF MAINSTREAM VENDORS ADHERE TO THOSE STANDARDS AND THOSE TOOLS, CHANCES ARE THEIR PRODUCT WILL PROBABLY BE COMPATIBLE ALREADY. WE TRY TO ADHERE TO THOSE. YEARS AGO, WHEN WE HAD TO CLUGE EVERYTHING, IT MEANT WE WERE BREAKING RULES IN ORDER TO MAKE SOMETHING ACCESSIBLE AND AS SOON AS THE OPERATING SYSTEM CHANGED, IT ALL STOPPED WORKING AN YOU WOULD HAVE TO 0021 DO IT AGAIN. MIKE OWE SOFT ACTIVE ACCESSIBILITY AND ALSO ON THE JOB ASIDE, SUN IS WORKING ON THE EQUIVALENT. IT HELPS BOTH COMPANIES TALK THE SAME LANGUAGE AND I THINK THAT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE OF WORK THAT'S BEEN DONE ALREADY. >>JULIE: ARE THOSE STANDARDS AVAILABLE ON THE ITAA WEBSITE? >>RANDY: WE DON'T HAVE THEM BUT THERE IS LINKS SO SUN'S WEBSITE FOR JAVA. >>JULIE: OUR NEXT PANELIST IS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN A LEADER IN THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY, PARTICULARLY IN THE AREA OF TECHNOLOGY ACCESS FOR MANY YEARS. PAUL SCHROEDER IS WITH US. HE IS VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENT RELATIONS FOR THE AMERICAN FOUNDATION FEHR THE BLIND. PAUL IS ALSO THE SENIOR CONTRIBUTING EDITOR FOR ACCESS WORLD TECHNOLOGY FOR CONSUMERS WITH VISUAL IMPAIRMENTS. HE IS THE ALLIANCE OF THE PUBLIC TECHNOLOGY AND INTERNATIONAL COALITION OF ACCESS ENGINEERS AND SPECIALISTS. PAUL, I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW YOU HAVE TIME TO BE HERE TODAY, BUT WE ARE GLAD YOU ARE HERE. >>PAUL: THANKS, JULIE. 0022 WE NEED TO FIND A FEW MORE PEOPLE OR GET ME AWAY FROM THE TABLE BEFORE I RAISE MY HAND. I ALMOST THINK WE OUGHT TO PITY THIS POOR 508. IT HAS CREATED UNCERTAINTY AND ANGST AROUND ANY COMMUNITY. IT'S NOT NEW. WE MAY NEED TO VISIT THAT AT SOME POINT BECAUSE THE IDEA OF AND IN FACT A VERSION OF 508 HAS BEEN AROUND FOR QUITE SOMETIME. THIS IS NOT A NEW LAW. WHAT'S NEW, OF COURSE, ARE THE STANDARDS AND THE ENFORCEABILITY OF THIS LAW, SO A LOT OF FOCUS ON IT NOW THAT IT HASN'T GOTTEN WHICH THOSE OF US IN THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY ARE THRILLED ABOUT. WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR THIS KIND OF LAW FOR A LONG TIME AND WE ARE ALL EXCITED ABOUT THE IMPENDING IMPLEMENTATION DATES. I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT THE LAW WITH OUR OWN SET OF HOPE, UNCERTAINTY AND CONCERNS. HOPE, OF COURSE, THAT IT WILL ACCOMPLISH ITS MAIN PURPOSE IN CREATING GOVERNMENT SERVICES THAT IN INFORMATION THAT IS MORE AVAILABLE, FOR EASIER TO USE FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES AND HOPE ALSO FOR ITS MORE DISTANT PURPOSES IN SOME WAYS REALLY HELPED 0023 ENGENDER THE BEGINNING OF 508 WHICH WAS THE BEGINNING OF USING GOVERNMENT MARKET POWER, THE AMOUNT OF MONEY SPENT BY GOVERNMENT ON TECHNOLOGY TO CREATE INCENTIVES FOR THE CREATION OF ACCESSIBLE TECHNOLOGY. BUT WE DO HAVE SOME UNCERTAINTY AS WELL, AND SOME OF THIS MAY ECHO UNCERTAINTY EXPRESSED IN OTHER COMMUNITIES AS WELL THAT HAVE TO DEAL WITH 508. UNCERTAINTY ABOUT WILL IT WILL IN FACT LEAD TO MORE ACCESSIBLE TECHNOLOGY, WHETHER THAT GOAL WILL BE CREATED. UNCERTAINTY ABOUT WHAT TO EX-TAX CREDIT AND WHAT EXACTLY IS COVERED BY SECTION 508508. KEITH A LITTLE WHILE AGO MENTIONED THIS NEW TERM OF ELECTRONIC INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY. WE KNOW WHAT IT MEANS BUT IT IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE SCOPE COVERED IN SECTION 508. THIS IS TO BE IMPLEMENTED BY GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY BUT IN THE END, THIS IS A LAW THAT REQUIRES ACTION BY GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AND SO IT REALLY HINGES VERY MUCH ON GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND, WHO ARE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR ACCESSIBILITY. AND OF COURSE, WE HAVE UNCERTAINTY ABOUT WHAT RANDY WAS JUST GETTING INTO A LITTLE BIT, AND THAT'S THE EXTENT OF ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY VERSUS THE EXTENT OF 0024 DIRECT ACCESS TO MAINSTREAM TECHNOLOGY. IN OTHER WORDS, WILL THINGS REMAIN ESSENTIALLY AS THEY ARE NOW, PEOPLE WITH DISABILITY REQUIRED TO PURCHASE AND IN FACT IN MANY WAYS WISHING TO PURCHASE THEIR OWN SPECIALIZED TECHNOLOGY TO USE WHATEVER EVERYONE ELSE USES IN THE MAINSTREAM OR WILL WE SEE MORE RESPONSIBILITY PUSHED ON TO MAINSTREAM PROVIDERS. IN TERMS OF CONCERN, ASIDE FROM THE UNCERTAINTIES THAT I HAVE JUST RAISED, I SUPPOSE THERE IS SOME CONCERN AMONG DISABILITY COMMUNITY ABOUT THE POTENTIAL FOR BACKLASH. WE OF COURSE HAVE ALREADY HEARD SOME OF THAT ALREADY FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW WHO THINK IT IS IN FACT A NEW LAW THAT'S NEVER BEEN TRIED THAT IN FACT WHO AREN'T AWARE OF MANY OF THE STEPS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE IN ACCESSIBILITY AND SO ARE CONCERNED THAT THIS CAN'T POSSIBLY BE DONE. THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AWARE THAT PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES DO USE TECHNOLOGY. THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE OUTRIGHT HOSTILE TO ANY CRITICISMS OF THEIR TECHNOLOGIES OR THEIR DESIGNS SO THE GOD-GIVEN ROLE OF TECHNOLOGY, WE DESIGNED IT AND WE ARE RIGHT. I THINK SOME OF THAT IS, MUCH OF THAT, HAS BEEN 0025 THANKFULLY NOT VERY APPARENT, AND I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES AND INDUSTRY AND PARTICULAR ASSOCIATIONS LIKE THE ONE REX REPRESENTS HAVE BEEN SO RESPONSIBLE IN PUTTING FORWARD THE POSITIVE MESSAGE THAT THIS CAN BE DONE, BUT ACCESSIBILITY IS ACHIEVABLE, AND THAT IN THE END, TECHNOLOGY AS A -- IS A TOOL THAT PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES AND PEOPLE WITHOUT DISABILITIES NEED TO DO THEIR WORK AND TO ACCESS GOVERNMENT INFORMATION. IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO TAKE A BROAD LOOK AT THE ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS CREATED BY THE ACCESS BOARD. THERE ARE SEVERAL PARTS TO THOSE STANDARDS, AND I'M CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO GO INTO DETAIL ABOUT THEM, BUT I DO WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION IN FACT TO THE PART OF THOSE STANDARDS THAT YOU MAY OVERLOOK, AND THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE FUNCTIONAL REQUIREMENTS FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES. SOMETIMES YOU MIGHT HEAR IT REFERRED TO AS SUBPART C. THESE ARE REQUIREMENTS THAT TALK ABOUT HOW TECHNOLOGIES NEED TO BE ACCESSIBLE BY USERS WITH VARIOUS DISABILITIES, AND SO WHILE THERE IS A LOT OF SPECIFICITY IN THE STANDARDS ABOUT WEB-BASED APPLICATIONS AND COMPUTER SOFTWARE, THERE IS ALSO THIS SECTION ABOUT HOW TO ENSURE IN THE END THAT 0026 WHATEVER YOU ARE LOOKING AT TECHNOLOGICALLY CAN BE USED BY SOMEBODY WHO IS BLIND, VISUALLY IMPAIRED, DEAF OR HARD OF HEARING, ETC. THERE IS A SECTION REGARDING DOCUMENTATION AND IMPLEMENTATION, A VERY IMPORTANT PIECE TO BE LOOKING AT IN THE ACCESSIBILITY KIT. I WANT TO CLOSE WITH A COUPLE OF MESSAGES. TO AGENCIES. IN SETTING YOUR REQUIREMENTS FOR ACQUISITION OR PURCHASE, BE BOLD IN CONDUCTING YOUR RESEARCH AND IN CHALLENGING WHAT VENDORS TELL YOU. YOU HAVE AN IMPORTANT ROLE TO PLAY IN CHANGING THE WAY TECHNOLOGY IS USED, I BELIEVE, BY ALL PEOPLE. YOU WILL HAVE A LOT TO DO WITH HOW MUCH ACCESSIBILITY IN THE END IS CREATED BY SECTION 508. SO BE SURE THAT YOUR RESEARCH REFLECTS TRULY THE NEEDS OF PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES BOTH WITHIN YOUR AGENCY AND AS PUBLIC CUSTOMERS OF YOUR AGENCIES. BE SKEPTICAL OF COMPANIES PROMISING EASY OR COMPLETE SOLUTIONS TO SECTION 508. IT IS DOABLE, BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARILY THAT SIMPLE. DON'T SURLY RENDER YOUR CONTROL THAT EASY. BE CUSTOMER SERVICE ORIENTED. PROVIDING INFORMATION IS JUST AS CRITICAL IN THIS VAIN THAT'S IN EVERYTHING ELSE THAT YOU DO. 0027 MY MESSAGE TO INDUSTRY IS TO INVOLVE PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES. YOU WILL BE MAKING A PRODUCT FAR MORE USABLE. REACH OUT TO PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES AT THE DESIGN STAGE. REACH OUT TO PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES IN HANDLING TESTING AND LOOK AT THE WAY PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES ACTUALLY USE A PRODUCT. YOU MAY BE SURPRISED AT HOW ABLE PEOPLE ARE TO GET AROUND BARRIERS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT WERE INSURMOUNTABLE. LASTLY, MY MESSAGE TO THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY IS TO ENCOURAGE PATIENCE AND GUIDANCE. FRANKLY, WE DON'T NEED A LOT OF PEOPLE FILING COMPLAINTS ON JUNE 21ST OR JUNE 25TH OR SATURDAY OR SUNDAY IN BETWEEN. TAKE SOMETIME, EXPLAIN YOUR CONCERNS TO AN AGENCY OR TO YOUR SUPERVISOR IF YOU WORK WITH AN AGENCY. THERE WILL BE MISTAKES AND MISSTEPS. DON'T BE TOO CRITICAL OF PEOPLE. FOLKS ARE TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING SO LET'S SEE IF WE CAN HELP WITH THE AGENCIES AND INDUSTRY TO IRON OUT THE PROBLEMS THAT WILL COME ABOUT. THERE WILL BE PLENTY OF TIME LATER IF PEOPLE AREN'T MOVING FORWARD TO WORRY ABOUT COMPLAINTS AND 0028 ENFORCEMENT, BUT FOR NOW, LET'S RELAX AND LET'S HAVE A CONTINUING DIALOGUE ABOUT WHAT'S NEEDED IN SECTION 508. I'D BE HAPPY, JULIE, WHEN WE GET AROUND TO QUESTIONS AND PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT THE ITTATC ITSELF AS A RESOURCE WE ARE GOING TO HEAR QUITE A BIT AROUND AND YOU HAVE MENTIONED THE INTERNATIONAL COALITION FOR ACCESS ENGINEERS AND SPECIALISTS, WHICH IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS TRYING TO BRING INDUSTRY AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES TOGETHER TO TALK SPECIFICALLY ABOUT HOW TO DO ACCESSIBLE DESIGN AND HOW TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER IN THAT CONTEXT. OF COURSE, THERE ARE MANY CONSUMER ORGANIZATIONS AS WELL, AND ORGANIZATIONS FROM THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY, AMERICAN FOUNDATION FOR THE BLIND IS ONE OF THOSE AND YOU MENTIONED ACCESS WORLD, SHAMELESS PLUG FOR OUR MAGAZINE ON TECHNOLOGY. THERE ARE MANY OTHER ORGANIZATIONS WITHIN THE BLINDNESS FIELD AND WITHIN MANY OTHER DISABILITY FIELDS AND WE CAN GO OVER SOME OF THOSE RESOURCES. >>JULIE: PAUL, YOU MENTIONED YOU ENCOURAGED PEOPLE TO WORK WITH PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES IN PRODUCT DESIGN. HOW DOES AN IT VENDOR NOW HOW TO FIND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES TO WORK WITH AND HOW DO THEY KNOW THAT 0029 THEY HAVE A REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLE OF PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES? >>PAUL: I THINK IT'S A GREAT CHALLENGE. WE WORRY ABOUT THAT. YOU CAN VERY EASILY MAKE THE MISTAKE OF FINDING USERS WITH DISABILITIES WHO ARE IN THE END TOO TALENTED, NOT LIKE ME, BUT WHO CAN ACTUALLY DO A LOT OF STUFF WITH THE TECHNOLOGY AND CAN OVERCOME A LOT OF PRODUCTS AND MAKE IT LOOK EASIER THAN IN FACT IT IS. YOU CAN ALSO FIND USERS MORE IN MY END OF THE SCALE WHO FLUB UP EVERYTHING. IT IS IMPORTANT TO FIND THAT MIDDLE GROUND. I THINK ONE OR TWO THINGS OUGHT TO BE KEPT IN MIND. ONE IS IT IS IMPORTANT TO TRY TO REACH OUT TO AN ORGANIZATION, AND THERE ARE LOTS OF NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS. I WOULD, I WOULD GUESS, JULIE, THAT YOU HAVE GOT SOME OF THEM OFF OF YOUR WEBSITE AT ITTATC. CERTAINLY AFP HAS -- AFB HAS A WEBSITE. YOU CAN GET IN TOUCH WITH US. THERE IS A GROUP CALLED CONSORTIUM FOR CITIZENS WITH DISABILITIES THAT HAS A WEBSITE THAT HAS MANY LINKS TO THE ORGANIZATIONS OF PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES. A PLACE TO START THEN IS TO WORK WITH THESE 0030 ORGANIZATIONS BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SENSE OF THE RANGE OF USER, USERS THAT THEY REPRESENT AND IN MANY CASES, IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE WITH US, WE HAVE A DATABASE OF INDIVIDUALS THAT WE CAN PUT COMPANIES IN TOUCH WITH TO ACTUALLY WORK WITH THEIR PRODUCTS AND AGAIN TO PROVIDE SOME OF THAT KIND OF FEEDBACK. I THINK THE SECOND THING IS TO LOOK AT DISABILITY ACCESS NOT UNLIKE THE WAY YOU LOOK AT ANY OTHER FORM OF USABILITY AND USER GROUP. TRY TO FIND A RANGE. COULD SOME -- DO SOME INITIAL SCREENING TO FIND OUT WHETHER THE PEOPLE YOU ARE REACHING OUT HAVE A WIDE VARIETY OF CAPABILITIES, WHETHER IN THE CASE OF PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES, THEY ARE COMFORTABLE WITH A VARIETY OF ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY RATHER THAN JUST STICKING WITH ONE PIECE OF SOFTWARE THEY WOULD DO. DO THAT SCREENING THAT YOU WOULD DO I GUESS WITH ANY OTHER GROUP WHICH YOU ARE TESTING A PRODUCT'S DESIGN. >>JULIE: I'D LIKE TO BOUNCE TO KEITH. PAUL MENTION PRODUCT SUPPORT AND PRODUCT DOCUMENTATION HAS TO BE MADE ACCESSIBLE. I HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH ABOUT THOSE PROVISIONS. DO YOU KNOW IF AGENCIES ARE INCLUDING THAT IN THEIR CONTRACTS FOR PROCUREMENT OR ARE THEY PLANNING TO 0031 MAKE THE PROCUREMENTS IN HOUSE OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT'S NOT AN THE RADAR SCREEN YET? >>KEITH: WE HAVE BEEN TELLING AGENCY PROCUREMENT SPECIALISTS AND I.T. PROFESSIONALS. AS FAR AS SOFTWARE, WE USED TO GET THE TRAINING MANUALS AND USER GUIDES IN BOOKS THAT WE STUCK ON OUR DESK UNTIL WE GOT OVERLOADS. MORE RECENTLY, WE BUY PRODUCTS WHERE THE TRAINING MATERIALS AND USER GUIDES ARE ON LINE, AND THAT THE COMPANY JUST PUTS IT ON THEIR WEBSITE. WE DON'T HAVE TO REPRODUCE IT, THEY DON'T HAVE TO REPRODUCE IT. IT MAKES IT MUCH MORE CONVENIENT. IN OUR SESSIONS WE HAVE BEEN TELLING PROCUREMENT FOLKS THAT IF THEY BUY I.T. AND IT COMES WITH DOCUMENTATION THAT THE DOCUMENTATION HAS TO BE ACCESSIBLE AND THAT IF THE, THE SOFTWARE COMPANY HOSTED ON THEIR OWN WEBSITE, THEN THAT PORTION OF THEIR WEBSITE NEEDS TO BE ACCESSIBLE TO PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES IN COMPLIANCE WITH SECTION 508 BECAUSE IT IS IN FACT ONE OF THE DELIVERABLES WITH THE SOFTWARE ITSELF, AND SOMETIMES WE ACTUALLY READ THOSE MANUALS ON HOW TO DO IT. MOST OF THE TIME WE DON'T. 0032 >>JULIE: GREAT. THAT'S GREAT TO HEAR. THANK YOU, PAUL. OUR FINAL PANELIST IS CHRISTOPHER YUKINS. CHRIS IS A PARTNER WITH THE INTERNATIONAL LAW FORM OF HOLLAND & KNIGHT AND CHRIS'S OFFICES ARE IN NORTHERN VIRGINIA. HE REPRESENTS INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY VENDORS WHO DO BUSINESS WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND HE HAS BEEN WORKING IN THE AIR I CAN'T OF GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT FOR MANY YEARS, FORMERLY WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. CHRIS, I BET YOUR PHONE HAS BEEN RINGING. >>CHRISTOPHER: THANK YOU, FIRST OFF, JULIE FOR INVITING ME TODAY. THERE IS TREMENDOUS INTEREST IN THE CONTRACTOR COMMUNITY. I REPRESENT A LARGE NUMBER OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY CONTRACTORS WHO FEEL THEMSELVES JUST BASICALLY UNPREPARED FOR SECTION 508. THERE IS SOMETHING IN MANY CONTRACTING SHOPS I THINK BOTH ON THE GOVERNMENT SIDE AND ON THE PRIVATE SIDE, SOMETHING CLOSE TO PANIC AT THIS POINT IN TERMS OF TRYING TO GET READY FOR NEXT MONDAY. IT IS A, THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE RIGHT NOW AND 0033 TREMENDOUS INTEREST IN SECTION 508. AS AN EXAMPLE, I BRIEFED A MAJOR SOFTWARE MANUFACTURER ON FRIDAY ON WHAT SECTION 508 MEANS AND THEY SAID GREAT, WE HAVE 5,000 PRODUCTS ON THE GSA SCHEDULES AND WE'LL TRY TO PREPARE OUR COMPLIANCE MATE RICHES IN THE NEXT WEEK OR SO, GIVE YOU AN IDEA WHERE THE CONTRACTORS ARE COMING FROM. SOME OF THE PROBLEMS WITH SECTION 508. FIRST OF ALL, THERE HAS BEEN NO MONEY TO APPROPRIATE TO MAKE SECTION 508 WORK. CONGRESS HAS APPROPRIATED ZERO DOLLARS. THAT CREATES OBVIOUS BURDEN ON NEW CONTRACTS BECAUSE THE QUESTIONS FROM THE CONTRACTOR'S AND AGENCY'S PERSPECTIVE WILL BE IF IT'S NECESSARY TO BUILD IN ACCESSIBILITY, WILL THERE BE ENOUGH RESOURCES TO DO THAT. THAT'S PROBABLY AN EASIER QUESTION THAN WITH OLD CONTRACTS. OLD TASK ORDER CONTRACTS THAT ALREADY EXIST, IF A NEW TASK ORDER IS ISSUED AFTER JUNE 25TH ON DEFINITE DELIVERY DEFINITE QUANTITY, IF A NEW TASK ORDER IS ISSUED OR NEW DELIVERY ORDER AFTER JUNE 25TH, THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY HARDWARE SOFTWARE SERVICES THAT HAVE TO BE ACCESSIBLE AND THERE WILL BE AN IMMEDIATE QUESTION AS TO WHO BEARS THE BURDEN OF THAT 0034 ACCESSIBILITY. IS IT THE CUSTOMER AGENCY OR CONTRACTOR? NOW THAT HASN'T BEEN ALLOWED. THEY WILL ARGUE THAT GOVERNMENT AGENCIES HAVE TO BEAR THE PRICE OF THAT ACCESSIBILITY BUT EVEN LIMITING THAT COULD BE VERY COSTLY. AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, I SPOKE ABOUT THE THOUSANDS OF GSA SCHEDULES CONTRACTS. THEY ARE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF SALES IN INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY THROUGH THE GSA SCHEDULE CONTRACTS RIGHT NOW PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY STREAMLINED VEHICLES. THE MODIFY CASES THAT ARE NECESSARY TO ADMINISTER THOSE GSA CONTRACTS ARE TYPICALLY HELD UP FOR A VERY LONG TIME, PROBABLY BECAUSE OF HIRING FREEZES THAT GSA HAS HAD TO GO THROUGH IN ITS CONTRACTING SHOPS. AS A RESULT OF THAT RIGHT NOW, GSA CANNOT PROCESS MODIFICATIONS AS FAST AS THE CONTRACTING COMMUNITY WOULD LIKE. WITH, AS OF JUNE 25TH, IT'S LIKELY THAT THERE WILL BE A FLOOD OF PROPOSED MODIFICATIONS AS CONTRACTORS OFFER NEW PRODUCTS THAT ARE ACCESSIBLE. THOSE MODIFICATIONS COULD VERY WELL OVERWHELM THE GSA SCHEDULES CONTRACTING SHOPS AS THEY COME IN AFTER JUNE 25TH. 0035 THAT'S A PRACTICAL PROBLEM THAT WILL HAVE TO BE MET. ANOTHER PROBLEM IS THE LACK OF DIRECTION AS TO WHAT IS IN FACT ACCESSIBLE. RANDY WAS ALLUDING TO BEFORE THERE IS NO BRIGHT LINE ON WHAT IS ACCESSIBLE AND CONTRACTORS HAVE HAD A HARD TIME SORTING OUT WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO. CONTRACTORS HAVE BEEN PREPARING MATRIXES WHICH ARE LITERALLY CHARTS LAYING OUT PRODUCT BY PRODUCT BY PRODUCT STANDARD BY STANDARD BY STANDARD WHETHER OR NOT THE PRODUCTS AND SERVICES ARE ACCESSIBLE. THOSE MATRIXES WILL TAKE A GREAT DEAL OF TIME TO FINALLY PREPARE. ANOTHER PROBLEM WITH SECTION 508 IS IT'S COLLIDING WITH THE PROCUREMENT WORLD AND A LOT OF TIMES MANY PEOPLE INVOLVED WITH SECTION 508 ARE NOT KEENLY AWARE OF SOME OF THE SUBLET IS IN THE PROCUREMENT WORDS. MISSTATEMENTS OR PUFFING ARE NOT TOLERATED. IF A CONTRACTOR MISSTATES THE CAPABILITY OF HIS OR HER EQUIPMENT OR SERVICES, THAT CAN LEAD TO A FRAUD ACTION. A FRAUD ACTION WOULD BE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT AND EXPENSIVE TO DEFEND SO CONTRACTORS HAVE TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT THEY REPRESENT TO THE GOVERNMENT AND QUITE RIGHTLY SO. ALSO THE SECTION 508 STANDARDS ASSUME A VERY HIGHLY 0036 STRUCTURED PROCUREMENT WORLD. THE STANDARDS EXECUTED THROUGH THE FAR RULE ASSUME REQUIREMENTS OFFICIAL AND PROCURING OFFICIAL. WHEN I WAS A JUSTICE DEPARTMENT LAWYER I WOULD BUY SERVICES FROM EXPERTS IN HALF OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. I WAS BOTH A REQUIREMENTS OFFICIAL LAYING OUT THE REQUIREMENTS NECESSARY AND THE PROCURING OFFICIAL. I WOULD ACTUALLY PROCURE THE SERVICES. THE FAR RULE CONTEMPLATES THAT THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL WILL WRITE A MEMO TO THE PROCURING OFFICIAL. AS JUSTICE DEPARTMENT LAWYER, I WOULD HAVE BEEN WRITING A MEMO TO MYSELF. THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THIS. SECTION 508 STANDARDS ARE VERY LIKELY TO LAUNCH BID PROTESTS. IF ANY PROCUREMENT IS EFFECTED IN VIOLATION OF LAW, ANOTHER CONTRACTOR WHO DOESN'T WIN THE CONTRACT CAN BRING WHAT'S CALLED A BID PROTEST AND BID PROTESTS ARE VERY DIFFICULT AND VERY EXPENSIVE, BOTH FOR THE AGENCY AND FOR THE AWARDEE CONTRACTOR TO DEFEND BECAUSE ANY PROCUREMENT THAT GOES FORWARD AFTER JUNE 25TH THAT IS NOT SECTION 508 COMPLIANT IS OPEN TO POTENTIAL BID PROTEST. THERE IS VERY HIGH LIKELIHOOD THAT THERE WILL BE A 0037 FLOOD OF BID PROTESTS AFTER JUNE 25TH AND THAT IN TURN WILL RAISE SOME COLLATERAL STRATEGIC ISSUES BOTH FOR THE CONTRACTOR AND DISABILITY COMMUNITY. FROM THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY STANDPOINT PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION TO THINK ABOUT IS IF SECTION 508 IS GOING TO BE WORKED OUT, DEVELOPS THROUGH THIS BID PROTEST PROCESS, DOES IT REALLY MAKE SENSE FOR CONTRACTORS, ONE CONTRACTOR, ANOTHER CONTRACTOR, FIGHTING EACH OTHER IN BID PROTEST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO LEAVE TO THE CONTRACTORS THE QUESTION OF WHAT SECTION 508 SHOULD MEAN. THAT'S A HUGE ISSUE FOR THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY TO SORT OUT IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS. IF IT'S LIKELY, WHAT'S LIKELY TO HAPPEN IS BETWEEN NOW AND THE END OF 2001, THERE ARE LIKELY TO BE A SLEW OF BID PROTESTS AND BETWEEN THE END OF 2010 THE FAR IS LIKELY TO GET WORKED OUT. BEFORE THAT HAPPENS, CONTRACTORS ARE GOING TO BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL INTO WEIGHING INTO THE FEDERAL MARKETPLACE. THAT'S HOW IMPORTANT IT IS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAVE FULL ACCESS TO A FULL RANGE OF I.T. SOLUTIONS. WHAT I HAVE DISCOVERED IS THAT COMMUNICATIONS ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO MAKE THIS SECTION 508 INITIATIVE 0038 WORK SO MY POINT OF ENCOURAGEMENT BOTH FOR AGENCIES AND FOR THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY AND FOR CONTRACTORS IS TO ENCOURAGE AS MUCH SECTION 508 AS MANY COMMUNICATIONS AS POSSIBLE REGARDING SECTION 508. THANKS. >>JULIE: THANK YOU. A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS CAME TO MIND AS YOU WERE TALKING. WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE REPRESENTATIONS OF THE COMPANIES PRESUMABLY SALES, MARKETING PEOPLE AND CONCERNS ABOUT FRAUD, SOME AGENCIES ARE ACTUALLY ASKING VENDORS TO CERTIFY THAT THEIR PRODUCTS ARE 508 COMPLIANT. HOW DO YOU ADVISE A CLIENT SHOULD I SIGN SUCH A CERTIFICATION? >>CHRISTOPHER: NO AND HELL NO. IF A CONTRACTOR REPRESENTS THAT A PRODUCT, LET'S SAY, IS IN FACT SECTION 508 COMPLIANT, THAT CAN LEAD TO A FRAUD ACTION AGAINST THE COMPANY AND THAT'S A VERY SERIOUS MATTER. THE MINIMUM PENALTY FOR FRAUD IS $5,000 PER INVOICE. THAT'S THE MINIMUM STARTING POINT PENALTY. IF A CERTIFICATION IS ADDED WHERE AN OFFICER OF THE COMPANY ACTUALLY SIGNS OFF ON CERTIFICATION, THAT CAN TRIGGER PERSONAL LIABILITY FOR THAT OFFICER AND THAT 0039 CREATES ANOTHER RANGE AND FRANKLY FROM THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY STANDPOINT, DISABILITY COMMUNITY DOESN'T CARE VERY MUCH WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A REPRESENTATION IN THE CONTRACT OR WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS AN ACTUAL CERTIFICATION. THE CERTIFICATION JUST ADDS HEAT ON AN INDIVIDUAL OFFICER WITHIN THE CONTRACTOR. >>JULIE: SO SHOULD A COMPANY THAT WANTS TO RESPOND TO A SOLICITATION THAT IT THINKS IS NOT PROPERLY WRITTEN, WHAT WOULD YOU ADVISE? SHOULD THEY GO TO GSA, SHOULD THEY GET TOGETHER, SHOULD THEY NOT RESPOND TO THE SOLICITATION IF IT'S NOT PROPERLY WRITTEN? >>CHRISTOPHER: WHAT THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA, A GROUP OF LAWYERS WITHIN THE ASSOCIATION HAS BEEN WORKING ON DRAFT CONTRACT LANGUAGE MUCH LIKE THE Y2K COMPLIANCE LANGUAGE. IT CAN BE PROFFERED. IT'S A REPRESENTATION FROM THE CONTRACTOR THAT IN FACT THE PRODUCTS THAT ARE BEING OFFERED ARE SECTION 508 COMPLIANT, GIVEN CERTAIN, GIVEN CERTAIN PREREQUIREMENTS SUCH AS THE ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY DOES IN FACT WORK WITH IT. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, JULIE, I WOULD GO TO THE 0040 AGENCY AND SAY HERE IS A MODEL CLAUSE TO THE INFORMATION ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA HAS DEVELOPED. >>JULIE: REX IS, THAT ON YOUR WEBSITE? >>REX: NOT YET. WE ARE JUST IN THE PROCESS OF GETTING ALL THE COMPANIES THAT HAVE PARTICIPATED IN DRAFTING IT TO AGREE TO IT. THAT PROCESS IS NOT COMPLETE. WE EXPECT IT WILL BE COMPLETE THIS WEEK AND PROBABLY WILL BE PUT FORTH AS A, AS, IN A LETTER TO GSA BEFORE WE DO ANYTHING PUBLICLY WITH IT. >>JULIE: HAS GSA BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS LANGUAGE? >>REX: NO. >>JULIE: BUT YOU KNOW IT'S COMING? >>KEITH: WE HAVE BEEN COOPERATING WITH ITAA AND ITI. WE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN SEEING THAT. THERE HAVE BEEN BOOTLEG CLAUSES THAT HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED AROUND THE GOVERNMENT AND I THINK WE HAVE CONVINCED MOST PEOPLE THAT IT'S BETTER TO HAVE A SINGLE APPROACH THAT EVERYBODY AGREES WITH AND UNDERSTANDS THAN HAVING 60 DIFFERENT AGENCIES VETTING DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS. WE ARE VERY MUCH IN FAVOR TO A UNIFIED APPROACH THAT MAKES SENSE FOR THE INDUSTRY AND THE GOVERNMENT. >>JULIE: IS THERE A MECHANISM IN THE GOVERNMENT FOR 0041 PEOPLE IN VARIOUS AGENCIES TO WORK TOGETHER ON THESE ISSUES AND LEARN FROM EACH OTHER SO THAT THEY ARE NOT REINVENTING THE WHEEL? >>KEITH: YES. WE HAVE THE SECTION 508 COORDINATORS WHICH IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF OVER 90 AGENCIES INVOLVED, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN LITTLE EMAIL LIST AND THEY HAVE MEETINGS AND SO ON AND THEY FREQUENTLY BRING IN ISSUES TO US THAT THEY NEED ANSWERS TO OR THEY NEED US TO RESPOND TO. IN ADDITION TO THAT, THERE IS 508 EXECUTIVE STEERING COMMITTEE WHICH IS COMPRISED OF THE PRINCIPAL AGENCIES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, ACCESS BOARD, GSA, OMB, AS WELL AS SOME OTHER AGENCIES THAT ARE VERY HEAVILY INTO 508 SUCH AS THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE AND THAT'S THE FORMULA IN WHICH THE HIGH-LEVEL POLICY ISSUES ARE MADE AND THINGS LIKE THIS ARE WORKED OUT AND WHEN THERE ARE DIFFERENCES OF OPINION, HOWEVER, WE FOUND A GREAT DEAL OF SUPPORT WORKING THINGS OUT AT THE LOWER LEVEL AND WITH INDUSTRY. >>JULIE: CHRIS, I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION FOR YOU. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, YOU RAISED THE ISSUE OF WHETHER THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY SHOULD ALLOW THE BID PROTEST TO ESSENTIALLY END UP DEFINING SECTION 508, AND I'M 0042 GUESSING, PAUL, THE ANSWER IS THAT THEY WOULD NOT WANT TO DO THAT. HOW CAN THEY PLAN TO GET INVOLVED TO HELP SHAPE HOW 508 GETS IMPLEMENTED? >>PAUL: WELL -- >>CHRISTOPHER: YOU UNDERSTAND THAT BID PROTEST IS CHALLENGE TO AWARD TO A GOVERNMENT CONTRACT. CAN YOU CHALLENGE TERMS OF THE SOLICITATION BUT KEEPING TRACK OF ALL THE SOLICIT ACES IS A NEAR IMPOSSIBILITY. THE MOST LIKELY PLACE FOR THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY TO BECOME INVOLVED IS AFTER AWARD IF THERE IS A BID PROTEST. THREE WAYS BID PROTEST CAN BE BROUGHT. AT THE AGENCY, AT THE COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS OR AT THE GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE AND MOST PROTESTS ARE BOUGHT WITHIN THE GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE. I WOULD SAY THERE ARE MAYBE 1500 BROUGHT EVERY YEAR IN THE GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE. I WOULD STRONGLY ENCOURAGE THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY TO ALERT THE GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE AND PERHAPS THE COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS TO THE INTERESTS OF THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY AND BEING INVOLVED IN BID PROTESTS AND WORK OUT MECHANISMS AHEAD OF TIME SO THAT IF THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY DOES WANT TO GET 0043 DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN A BID PROTEST, THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY CAN BE INVOLVED EITHER THROUGH THE AMICUS PROCESS, BY SUPPLYING FRIENDS OF THE COURT BRIEFS TO THE GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE DURING BID PROTEST OR ACTUALLY PARTICIPATING DIRECTLY IN THE BID PROTEST. BUT THAT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR A DISABLED PERSON TO DO. A BID PROTEST REALLY INVOLVES TWO CONTRACTS AND AGENCY. IT'S HARD FOR PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE TO GET INVOLVED. THESE BID PROTESTS OCCUR VERY RAPIDLY. THEY GET DONE WITHIN 100 DAYS. THIS IS WHERE THE LAW GETS FORMED, WHERE FEDERAL PROCUREMENT LAW IS FORMED IS THROUGH THE CRUCIBLE OF GAO BID PROTESTS BY AND LARGE. >>JULIE: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU ALL FOR A VERY LIVELY FIRST HOUR. I LOOK FORWARD TO BRINGING OUR AUDIENCE INTO THIS DISCUSSION. I'M AFRAID WE ARE OUT OF TIME. NEXT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE MICHAEL MORRIS TALK TO US ABOUT ITTATC, BUT BEFORE WE DO THAT, LET ME REPEAT THE NUMBERS FOR SENDING IN YOUR QUESTIONS. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO PHONE IN YOUR QUESTION, THE NUMBER IS 703-961-9250. 0044 EXTENSION 225. FOR FAX, IT'S 703-961-9255, AND THERE IS ALSO THE EMAIL LINK AND THE CHAT LINK ON THE TVWORLDWIDE.COM SITE AND DON'T FORGET THAT IF YOU EXPERIENCE TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES, WE DO HAVE A TROUBLE LINE. GIVE US A CALL. IT'S 703-961-9250, EXTENSION 223. WHILE THE QUESTIONS ARE HOPEFULLY COMING IN, WE ARE GOING TO TURN TO MICHAEL MORRIS, WHO WILL TALK TO US ABOUT THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING CENTER, THE HOST OF TODAY'S WEBCAST. MICHAEL? >>MICHAEL: THANK YOU, JULIE. WE KEEP REFERRING TO ITTATC OR THE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING CENTER. JUST WANT TO PROVIDE A QUITE TWO-MINUTE EXPLANATION OF WHAT ITTATC IS. ITTATC WAS FUNDED LATE LAST YEAR IN NOVEMBER BY THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE ON DISABILITY AND REHABILITATION RESEARCH, OTHERWISE KNOWN AS NIDR. IT WAS FUNDED BASED ON REQUESTS FOR PROPOSALS AROUND THE COUNTRY. THE WINNING APPLICATION CAME FROM THE GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY, THE GROUP CALLED CATEA. ITTATC HAS AN ARRAY OF PARTNERS WILL I WILL MENTION 0045 SHORTLY, BUT FIRST LET ME SHARE WITH YOU THE GOALS OF ITTATC. THE FOUR GOALS REALLY. THE FIRST IS TO INCREASE UNDERSTANDING AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE REQUIREMENTS OF SECTION 508 -- SECTION 255 OF THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS ACT AND SECTION 508 OF THE REHABILITATION ABILITY, THE PURPOSE OF THE DISCUSSION TODAY IN THIS PANEL. NUMBER TWO IS A GOAL OF ITTATC IS TO PROMOTE OPPORTUNITIES FOR POSITIVE INTERACTIONS AMONG GOVERNMENT, INDUSTRY, AND THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY TO INCREASE MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING AND KNOWLEDGE UTILIZATION ABOUT ACCESSIBLE ELECTRONIC AND INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY THAT HOPEFULLY WILL IMPACT POSITIVELY INDUSTRY POLICIES AND PRACTICES. THE THIRD GOAL OF ITTATC IS TO PROMOTE THE WIDESPREAD USE OF ACCESSIBLE AND USABLE ELECTRONIC AND INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY IN THE HOME, SCHOOL, AND WORKPLACE, AND THEN FOURTH, AS A FINAL GOAL, IS TO SUPPORT THE REPLICATION OF PROMISING POLICIES AND PRACTICES AT A STATE LEVEL REGARDING WEBSITE ACCESSIBILITY, ACCESSIBLE IT IN THE PUBLIC WORKPLACE AND PROCUREMENT OF ACCESSIBLE I.T. PRODUCTS AND SERVICES. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ACTIVITIES THAT ITTATC WILL BE 0046 INVOLVED WITH OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS. FIRST, IT'S TO CREATE A WEBSITE. WE HAVE MENTIONED THE WEBSITE ADDRESS SEVERAL TIMES ON THIS WEBSITE. IT'S ITTATC.ORG. OUR GOAL IS THAT THE WEBSITE BECOME A PORTAL TO INFORMATION ON ACCESSIBLE DESIGN METHODS, RESOURCES AND TRAINING FOR INDUSTRY PRODUCT DESIGNERS, WEB DEVELOPERS, PROCUREMENT OFFICERS AND ALSO A DIRECT SOURCE OF INFORMATION FOR INDIVIDUALS WITH DISABILITIES AND DISABILITY-RELATED ORGANIZATIONS. ITTATC WILL ALSO BE DEVELOPING TRAINING MATERIALS AND ONSITE TRAINING FOR I.T. AND TELECOM MANUFACTURERS AND DEVELOPERS, METHODS FOR DEVELOPMENT OF ACCESSIBLE PRODUCTS AND SERVICES. THIRD, ITTATC WILL HELP CREATE A DATABASE TO DISSEMINATE MATERIALS AND CONDUCT TRAINING THAT WILL TARGET STATE LEVEL 508 COMPLIANCE AND VOLUNTARY ACTIVITIES AGAIN REGARDING WEBSITE ACCESSIBILITY, PROCUREMENT OF ACCESSIBLE I.T. PRODUCTS AND SERVICES AND THE PROMOTION OF ACCESSIBLE I.T. IN THE GOVERNMENT WORKPLACE AND FINALLY, A GOAL OF ITTATC AND ACTIVITIES THAT WILL FOLLOW WILL BE TO PROMOTE THE BENEFITS OF UNIVERSAL DESIGN TO MULTIPLE STAKEHOLDERS INCLUDING TECHNOLOGY MANUFACTURERS, 0047 PRODUCT DESIGNERS AND ENGINEERS, TECHNICAL WRITERS, MARKETERS, DISTRIBUTORS AND PURCHASERS OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY. AS I MENTIONED, THE GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY CENTER ON ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL ACCESS IS THE GRANTEE FROM NIDR. IT HAS A HOST OF PARTNERS THAT INCLUDES THE WORLD INSTITUTE ON DISABILITY, REGIONAL DISABILITY AND BUSINESS TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE CENTERS, THE TRACE CENTER AT THE UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN MADISON, INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA, COMMUNITY OPTIONS, INC., THE ORGANIZATION I WORK FOR, INCLUSIVE TECHNOLOGIES, ATAP, AND THERE IS AS WELL A NATIONAL ADVISORY BOARD WHICH INCLUDES SOME OF THE LEADING TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES IN THE UNITED STATES. FINAL POINT TO MENTION ABOUT ITTATC IS THIS WEBCAST IS THE FIRST OF SEVERAL THAT WE ARE PLANNING THIS YEAR AND IN FUTURE YEARS. WE URGE YOU TO LOOK AT THE ITTATC WEBSITE, ITTATC.ORG, TO LEARN ABOUT OUR NEXT WEBCAST, WHICH WILL RELATE TO THE FAIRFAX COUNTY AND SECTION 255, WHICH SHOULD BE COMING IN LATE JULY AND A FURTHER WEBCAST WHICH WILL BE COMING AT THE END OF THE SUMMER, PERHAPS IN EARLY TO MID SEPTEMBER WHICH WILL FOCUS ON THE ISSUES OF AGING, CHANGING ABILITY, AND 0048 THE DESIGN OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY. ALSO PLANNED IN THE MONTHS AHEAD ARE A SERIES OF FORUMS TARGETED AT INDUSTRY THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT LOCATING ONE IN THE EAST COAST, ONE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY AND ONE IN SILICON VALLEY, SO AGAIN, THOSE ARE JUST A SAMPLING OF ACTIVITIES FROM ITTATC AND WE HOPE THAT YOU WILL CONTINUE TO GO TO THE WEBSITE FOR INFORMATION, FOR BRINGING US YOUR QUESTIONS AND ALSO LEARNING OF ADDITIONAL TRAINING OPPORTUNITIES. TURN IT BACK TO YOU, JULIE. >>JULIE: HOPEFULLY OUR QUESTIONS ARE COMING IN. >>MICHAEL: AS I WAS SPEAKING, WE HAVE A PILE OF QUESTIONS. AND LET ME TAKE IT BACK TO THE PANEL. THE FIRST QUESTION, WHICH ACTUALLY THAT STARTED COMING IN EVEN A HALF-HOUR BEFORE WE WENT ON LINE WAS A GENERAL QUESTION WHICH PERHAPS I'LL ASK OF THE ENTIRE PANEL. THE QUESTION WAS IS IF YOU COULD PROJECT A YEAR OUT FROM NOW, A YEAR FROM JUNE 25TH, YOU REPRESENT MANY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES FROM WITHIN GOVERNMENT AS WELL AS OUTSIDE GOVERNMENT. WHAT WOULD BE YOUR FORECAST AS TO WHAT MIGHT HAVE CHANGED? 0049 WHAT WOULD WE EXPECT TO SEE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE IN TERMS OF IMPLEMENTATION OF SECTION 508, AND WHY DON'T I START WITH KEITH? >>KEITH: WELL, I THINK ONE THING THAT'S GOOD TO MENTION IS THAT THIS IS JUST A BEGINNING. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING AS IF ON JUNE 21ST THAT EVERYTHING SHOULD BE INSTANTLY ACCESSIBLE. I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE INTENTION. THAT'S NOT OUR VIEW OF IT. IT'S THE BEGINNING OF A PROCESS BY WHICH THINGS WILL BECOME MORE ACCESSIBLE OVER TIME AS AGENCIES TURN OVER THEIR I.T. AND MAKE PROCUREMENTS, SO IT WILL BE SOMETIME. OBVIOUSLY WE KNOW ON THE INDUSTRY SIDE THAT ALL OFFERINGS WON'T BE ACCESSIBLE IMMEDIATELY. THAT WE ARE GOING TO DEAL WITH A LOT OF ISSUES OF PARTIAL COMPLIANCE AND THAT OVER TIME THAT MORE AND MORE PRODUCTS WILL START MEETING A LOT OF THE 508 STANDARDS AND SO I THINK A YEAR FROM NOW, BUT MAYBE MORE LIKELY TWO YEARS FROM NOW, WE'LL SEE A WORLD WHERE THINGS ARE VERY ACCESSIBLE IN THE NEW PRODUCTS WE ARE BUYING, THAT IT WILL BE LIKE ENERGY STAR AND Y2K COMPLIANT, BUT WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS AWKWARD TRANSITION PROCESS WHERE SOME PRODUCTS WILL BE COMPLIANT, SOME WILL BE PARTIAL COMPLIANT AND WE'LL 0050 WORK THROUGH THAT. I THINK WE'LL BE A LOT MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE PRODUCT OFFERINGS AT THAT TIME, AND ESPECIALLY THE IT PEOPLE AND AGENCIES AND PROCUREMENT OFFICERS WILL BE MORE ACCUSTOMED TO DOING BUSINESS ON BUYING 508 COMPLIANT PRODUCTS. >>MICHAEL: REX? >>REX: I AGREE IT'S PROBABLY A ONE-TO TWO-YEAR TIME FRAME BECAUSE THAT'S THE CYCLE TIME OF A NEW PRODUCT TO COME IN. IT'S PROBABLY THE TIME THE REQUIREMENTS ARE AGREED TO AND THE PRODUCT FINALLY HITS THE MARKET. I THINK THE TIME FRAME WILL BE 18 MONTHS TO TWO YEARS IS PROBABLY WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO SEE THE REAL RESPONSE. THAT'S 18 MONTHS FROM REALLY THE ACCESS BOARD FINISHED THEIR WORK, NOT FROM NOW, REALLY. >>MICHAEL: RANDY? >>RANDY: I THINK AND HOPE A YEAR FROM NOW IT'S GOING TO BE A SITUATION THAT IS A.T. VENDORS, THAT WE HAVE DREAMED OF AS HAVING OPEN CHANNEL OF DIALOGUE BETWEEN OURSELVES AND MAINSTREAM TECHNOLOGY VENDORS AND THE NET OF THAT WILL BE MORE ACCESSIBLE PRODUCTS. >>PAUL: I GUESS IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU WANT ME TO WEAR THE OPTIMISTIC OR PESSIMISTIC HAT. 0051 OPTIMISTICALLY IT'S WHERE ACCESSIBILITY ALREADY WAS. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF WORK THANKS IN PART TO THE WORLD WIDE WEB CONSORTIUM AND ALSO IN THE ARENA OF SOFTWARE WHERE ASSISTIVE TECH AND MAINSTREAM DEVELOPERS IN PARTICULAR MIKE PRO-COST HAVE DONE A LOT OF WORK TO TRY TO GET THEIR PRODUCTS TO WORK BETTER TOGETHER SO I THINK WE'LL SEE EVEN MORE OF THAT OVER THE NEXT YEAR. I'M LESS OPTIMISTIC ON THE HARDWARE SIDE. FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAVE HAD REQUIREMENTS UNDER SECTION 508255 FOR TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND WE HAVEN'T SEEN CHANGES IN EQUIPMENT COME VERY QUICKLY OR DRAMATICALLY IN TERMS OF ACCESSIBILITY. SO SOFTWARE AND WEB I THINK A YEAR FROM NOW WE ARE GOING TO SEE MUCH BETTER ACCESSIBILITY, EVEN THAN WE HAVE NOW. >>MICHAEL: CHRIS? >>CHRISTOPHER: A COUPLE COMMENTS. REALIZE THAT THIS INDUSTRY MOVES NOT IN YEARS OR MONTHS, IT MOVES IN A MATTER OF DAYS. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT EVERYBODY UNDERSTAND THAT. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUNE 21ST WHEN THE ACCESS BOARD STANDARDS TAKE EFFECT TO THE 25TH, IT'S JUST A FEW DAYS. IT'S THE END OF THE SECOND QUARTER WHEN MOST OF THE 0052 TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY IS IN THE TOILET. THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT QUARTER. IF PEOPLE CAN'T MAKE SALES AND MAKE THOSE SALES SUBSTANTIALLY COMPLETED IN ORDER TO ENJOY THE REVENUE RECOGNITION BY JUNE 30TH, THAT'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM SO IT'S IMPORTANT FOR EVERYBODY TO UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT IN WHICH THE I.T. COMPANIES ARE WORKING. AND I'M GOING TO GIVE A GUESS ON WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS ON THE PROCUREMENT LAW SIDE. IT IS A PROVISION AND AS REX SAID IT'S REQUIRED READING THAT YOU READ THE ACCESS BOARD STANDARDS AVAILABLE ON SECTION 508.GOV AT PAGE 80502 OF THE FEDERAL REGISTER IT SAYS IF PRODUCTS ARE COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE THAT MEET SOME, BUT NOT ALL OF THE STANDARDS AND I WOULD COVER THAT -- ARGUE THAT IT COVERS ALL I.T. PRODUCTS. IF PRODUCTS ARE COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE THAT MEET SOME OR ALL OF THE STANDARDS THE AGENCY MUST PROCURE THE PRODUCTS THAT BEST MEETS THE STANDARDS. THEY MUST PROCURE THE PRODUCT THAT BEST MEETS THE STANDARDS. THAT IS A SENTENCE THAT WILL LAUNCH A THOUSAND BID PROTESTS. THAT SENTENCE SAYS IF THERE ARE TWO PRODUCTS AND ONE 0053 IS SLIGHTLY MORE ACCESSIBLE THAN THE OTHER ONE, THE AGENCY MUST BY THE ACCESSIBLE PRODUCT. BY THE END OF THE YEAR MY BEST GUESS IS THE GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE AND COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS WILL SAY THIS IS JUST TOO COMPLICATED FOR US TO FIGURE OUT, WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE IT TO THE AGENCIES TO FIGURE OUT AND THE AGENCIES HAVE TO DO THE BEST JOB THEY CAN. THAT WON'T NECESSARILY BE A BAD THING FOR THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY, THOUGH, WHEN THAT HAPPENS IF THAT HAPPENS. BECAUSE RIGHT NOW A LOT OF SOPHISTICATED INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES WANT TO USE ACCESSIBILITY AS A SALES POINT. THEY WANT TO BE ACCESSIBLE. THEY CAN'T DO IT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID OF THAT SENTENCE. THEY ARE AFRAID THAT SOMEBODY WILL COME ON, COME OVER THE HORIZON THAT WILL OFFER A PRODUCT THAT IS JUST SLIGHTLY MORE ACCESSIBLE EVEN IF IT'S A SHODDY PRODUCT SO THE SOPHISTICATED I.T. CONTRACTORS IS TRYING TO SHOVE THEIR PROCUREMENTS INTO ONE OF THE EXCEPTIONS TO SECTION 508 IF AT ALL POSSIBLE TO AVOID THE BID PROTESTS WE ARE GOING TO SEE ENVELOPING THE I.T. COMMUNITY. 0054 WHEN THE PROTESTS SETTLE OUT AND GAO AND COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS SAY THIS IS A MATTER FOR THE AGENCIES TO RESOLVE, IT WILL BE MORE OF THE AGENCIES TRYING TO MAKE THE PROCUREMENTS AS ACCESSIBLE AS POSSIBLE GIVEN VARIOUS COST CONSTRAINTS, GIVEN SOME VARIOUS RESOURCE CONSTRAINTS AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS THE SOPHISTICATED I.T. CONTRACTORS WILL COME BACK IN THE FIELD AND WILL OFFER MORE ACCESSIBLE PRODUCTS AND SYSTEMS BECAUSE THEY WON'T BE SO AFRAID OF THE BID PROTESTS. BID PROTESTS WILL TAKE THE REST OF THE YEAR. COURT OF FEDERAL CLAIMS WILL SAY SEND THIS BACK TO THE AGENCIES. AT THAT POINT ACCESSIBILITY WILL BECOME ONE OF MANY GOALS IN GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT AND THE SITUATION WILL ACTUALLY IMPROVE, I WOULD ARGUE, FOR THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY. >>MICHAEL: THANK YOU. LET ME GO TO A VERY SPECIFIC QUESTION AND THIS ONE IS TARGETED TO YOU, RANDY. YOU MENTIONED MSAA AND JAVA ACCESSIBILITY FOR MAKING SOFTWARE ACCESSIBLE. HOW DO DEVELOPERS OF NON-JAVA APPLICATIONS FOR NON-WINDOWSPLACE FORMS SUCH AS LINUX OR MAC OS MEET THE REQUIREMENTS? >>RANDY: I THINK IT'S A TOUGH ONE. 0055 I THINK LINUX AND MAC OS ARE BEHIND WINDOWS AND JAVA IN THEIR ACCESSIBILITY OPTIONS. I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS AN EQUIVALENT OF MSAA IN EITHER OF THESE PLATFORMS NOW. SECTION 508 MIGHT CHANGE THAT QUICKLY. THERE NEEDS TO BE. ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY VENDOR CAN'T JUST MAGICALLY MAKE A PRODUCT WORK ON A CERTAIN OPERATING SYSTEM. INTEREST HAS TO BE SOME HOOKS OR WAYS INTO THAT OPERATING SYSTEM THAT WE CAN COMMUNICATE TO GET THE INFORMATION THAT WE NEED AND IF THOSE AREN'T SUPPORTIVE WAYS, THEN WE END UP DOING WHAT I SAID, CLUGING AND BOTH THOSE PLATFORMS ARE BEHIND WINDOWS AND JAVA AND THE DEVELOPERS OF THOSE OPERATING SYSTEMS NEED TO STAND UP AND TRY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN. >>REX: THERE IS THE ACCESSIBILITY FORUM TO COME UP WITH NEEDED STANDARDS IN THIS PARTICULAR DOMAIN AND INDUSTRY HAS BEEN PUSHING THAT ORGANIZATION TO TAKE ON THE ISSUE THAT YOU HAVE JUST, THAT YOU HAVE JUST OUTLINED, RANDY, AND THAT IS TO COME OUT WITH A, AN API FOR THE INTERFACE BETWEEN OPERATING SYSTEMS AND ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY, AND TO DO THAT, NOT NECESSARILY JUST FOR ONE OPERATING SYSTEM, BUT FOR POTENTIALLY ALL THE ONES OF A SIGNIFICANT INTEREST, SO I THINK SOME SUPPORT OF THAT EFFORT WOULD GO A LONG WAY IN 0056 MAKING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY AND MAIN LINE TECHNOLOGY A BIT MORE FORMAL THAN IT HAS IN THE PAST. >>KEITH: THAT IS AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE MAINSTREAM I.T. INDUSTRY AND THE ACCESSIBLE TECHNOLOGY DEVICES FOLKS CAN COLLABORATE AND APPLE COMPUTER, THEY ARE WORKING ON THEIR 508 COMPLIANCE AND THEY ARE JOINING THE ACCESSIBILITY FORUM TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE AT THE TABLE TO HELP WORK OUT THE ISSUES WITH THEIR SYSTEMS. >>RANDY: I SHOULD POINT OUT THAT DIFFERENT OPERATING SYSTEMS HAVE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF API'S IN THEM AND SOME MAY NOT NEED SPECIAL CARDS FOR ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY TO WORK CREATED FOR THAT PURPOSE BECAUSE THEY MAY HAVE THAT IN THE OPERATING SYSTEM. IT'S OPERATING SYSTEM DEPENDENT, WHETHER SPECIAL APIS NEED TO BE DEVELOPED FOR A SCREEN READER TO WORK OR NOT. >>KEITH: FROM THE GOVERNMENT'S POINT OF VIEW, WHEN YOU HAVE A PERSON WITH A DISABILITY THAT PERHAPS NEEDS A SCREEN READER, WE WANT TO LOOK TO THAT COMMON INTERFACE BECAUSE THEIR TROUBLE OF HAVING TO USE THIS SCREEN READER WITH ONE APPLICATION AND ANOTHER SCREEN READER WITH A DIFFERENT APPLICATION BECAUSE THERE IS NOT THAT COMMON INTERFACE THAT SOMEONE MIGHT SEEK. >>MICHAEL: LET ME MOVE ON TO ANOTHER QUESTION. 0057 SOMEWHAT RELATED, CAN SOMEONE, NOT IDENTIFIED WHICH PANEL MEMBER, PLEASE COMMENT ON THE TOOLS THAT COMPANIES ARE USING FOR TESTING 508 COMPATIBILITY? >>KEITH: I'LL START AND OTHERS CAN JOIN. A NUMBER OF COMPANIES HAVE COME FORWARD TO THE GOVERNMENT WITH NEWLY DEVELOPED PRODUCTS FOR TESTING 508 COMPLIANCE, ESPECIALLY ON WEBSITES, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE WANTED TO SEE. THE MARKETPLACE MOVE INTO THIS SPACE AND START RESPONDING WITH THE TESTING TOOLS THAT OTHERWISE WEREN'T PRESENT. IT'S GOOD TO SEE ESPECIALLY ON THE WEB PAGES THAT ARE GETTING MUCH RICHER AND ARE ABLE TO DO A LOT MORE THAN ONE WOULD HAVE EVER THOUGHT JUST A YEAR AGO. THEY, NONE OF THE TOOLS TEST 100 PERCENT OF 508 COMPLIANCE AND I SHOULD MENTION THAT SOME OF THE TOOLS WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE A CHOICE, YOU CAN JUST CHECK FOR W 3 C, WAI OR YOU CAN CHECK FOR 508 OR BOTH. THAT'S A GREAT MOVE FORWARD BECAUSE WE KNOW SOME COMPANIES ARE USING THE W 3 C STANDARDS. BUT I'M SEEING A VERY RICH SET OF PRODUCTS COME OUT. I THINK WE WILL HAVE TO SEE DOWNSTREAM IF THE EQUIVALENT COMES OUT FOR SOFTWARE, AND OF COURSE, THAT DEPENDS ON THE OPERATING SYSTEMS THAT WE WERE 0058 TALKING ABOUT BEFORE, WHICH TARGET, WHICH PLATFORMS THEY TARGET TO TEST AGAINST. >>MICHAEL: LET ME GO TO THE NEXT QUESTION, AND THAT IS, IS 508 BASED ON ANY EXISTING INTERNATIONAL ACCESSIBILITY REGULATIONS, AND CAN YOU POINT US TO ANY INTERNATIONAL ACCESSIBILITY REGULATIONS? >>REX: I CAN HANDLE THAT ONE. THE ANSWER TO THAT IS NO, IT'S NOT. IT WAS DERIVED FROM THE WORK OF THE ACCESS BOARD AND FOR THE MOST PART BETWEEN THE COLLABORATION OF GOVERNMENT INDUSTRIES AND GROUPS REPRESENTING PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES. THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES AND FROM INDUSTRY'S PERSPECTIVE, WE ARE CONCERNED THAT OTHER REGIONS SUCH AS EUROPE, SUCH AS ASIA, COULD COME UP WITH OTHER ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS WHICH ARE DIFFERENT FROM 508, AND WE ARE CONCERNED THAT IF THAT HAPPENS THAT WE WILL NOT ACHIEVE THE ECONOMIES OF SCALE THAT COME WITH BUILDING MANY, MANY PRODUCTS WITH JUST ONE SET OF REQUIREMENTS. THAT SAID, THE ACTIVITIES THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON IN EUROPE FOR THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS REVOLVE AROUND A MANDATE FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION, EUROPEAN UNION CALLED DESIGN FOR ALL AND IT'S A CHALLENGE TO ALL OF THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT MAKE STANDARDS SAYING 0059 TAKE A LOOK AT YOUR STANDARD AND MAKE SURE THAT IT HAS ALLOWANCES IN IT FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES AND FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE AGING AND IN GENERAL, DESIGNING FOR ALL PEOPLE AS OPPOSED TO PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES BUT THAT IS PROBABLY GOING TO LEAD TO A DIFFERENT SET OF FEATURES, DIFFERENT SET OF STANDARDS BEING CALLED OUT FOR MAKING SOMETHING "COMPLIANT." ANYBODY ELSE? >>RANDY: I'M CANADIAN. I HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BY CANADIAN COMPANIES ASKING WHAT IS THE SECTION 508 STUFF. THEY ARE VERY INTERESTED IN SELL TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND THEY ARE GETTING PULLED RIGHT ALONG WITH THIS LAW EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT AMERICAN COMPANIES. >>MICHAEL: GOOD POINT. NEXT QUESTION SHIFTS OUR ATTENTION. MUCH OF THE DISCUSSION HAS BEEN ABOUT CHANGES IN PROCUREMENT PROCEDURES. THIS QUESTIONER IS INTERESTED, IN HOWEVER, WHAT CHANGES ARE UNDER WAY INSIDE GOVERNMENT REGARDING THE 508 STANDARDS RELATED TO WEB ACCESSIBILITY AND SHOULD WE EXPECT THAT THERE WILL BE IMMEDIATE CHANGES IN GOVERNMENT WEBSITES? >>KEITH: I GUESS THAT'S MINE. AS YOU KNOW, WE BEGAN BY ROLLING OUT THE WEB 0060 STANDARDS OVER A YEAR AGO AND TAUGHT MORE THAN 2400 GOVERNMENT WEB MASTERS THE 508 STANDARDS FOR WEB ACCESSIBILITY. IN ADDITION, THERE IS A NEW ONLINE TRAINING SESSION COMING UP ON SECTION 508.GOV WEBSITE. WE PUT OUT A MANDATE THAT AGENCIES START TO LOOK AT THEIR HOME PAGES AND THEIR TOP 20 PAGES BY VOLUME, AND TO START REMEDIATING ON THE HIGH VOLUME PAGES. NOW, I SHOULD MENTION THAT THERE IS NO REAL REQUIREMENT TO REMEDIATE THROUGH SECTION 508 FOR ANYTHING PROCURED PRIOR TO JUNE 21ST, HOWEVER, WE KNOW IT'S IMPORTANT FOR COMPLIANCE REASONS AND THERE ARE SECTION 501 AND 504 OUT THERE SO AGENCIES STARTING TO PRIORITIZE WHAT THEY CAN DO EARLY ON AND MANY AGENCIES HAVE REMEDIATING SOME OF THEIR PAGES. I THINK YOU WILL FIND THAT THE GOVERNMENT WEB PAGES TODAY ARE MUCH MORE ACCESSIBLE THAN THEY WERE JUST A YEAR AGO AND THAT AS WE PROGRESS, THAT MORE AND MORE OF THE SITES WILL BECOME ACCESSIBLE, FULLY ACCESSIBLE WITH THE TURNOVER IN PAGES DOWNSTREAM. AS A TECHNOLOGY ISSUE, KIND OF A PARALLEL TIMING, MANY OF THE AGENCIES ARE NOW TRANSITIONING FROM STAND ALONE WEB PAGES TO PORTAL TECHNOLOGY AND MOST OF THIS IS FOR THE REASON OF GETTING THE HANDLE ON THE WEB CONTENT OF THEIR PAGES AND THEY MAY HAVE HAD 30 OR 40 0061 DIFFERENT WEBSITES OUT THERE WORKING AND EACH ONE WITH MANY WEB MASTERS OR CONTENT MANAGERS WORKING FOR THEM AND WHAT WE ARE FINDING IS AS THEY ARE MIGRATING TO THE PORTAL TECHNOLOGIES THAT THEY ARE TAKING ON 508 REMEDIATION IN THAT PROCESS SO THROUGH PARALLEL TIMING WE ARE VERY FORTUNATE THAT MANY AGENCIES ARE GOING BACK AND SEEING WHAT THEY CAN MAKE ACCESSIBLE. >>MICHAEL: KEITH, WHAT ARE THEY USING FOR FUNDING? >>KEITH: FUNDING IS A PROBLEM. WEB IN GENERAL, AS YOU MAY KNOW, ALMOST EVERY FEDERAL AGENCY HAS A WEBSITE AND IF YOU WENT TO THE U.S. BUDGET TO FIND OUT WHERE WAS THE MANDATE OR WHERE WAS THE FUNDING FOR DEVELOPING THOSE WEBSITES, IT'S NOT THERE. IT WAS TAKEN OUT OF THE AGENCY'S HIDE AND THEY DEVELOPED IT ON THEIR OWN SO WHEN THEY MIGRATE TO PORTAL OR HAVE WEB ISSUES, THAT'S COMING OUT OF THEIR OWN FUNDS. >>REX: MAKING THEM A LITTLE THIN SKINNED? >>CHRISTOPHER: I'M GLAD KEITH MENTIONED 504. >>PAUL: WE HEAR THIS A LOT. THAT IS THAT 508 DOES NOT REQUIRE THIS OR THAT AND IN FACT THERE IS TECHNICAL TRUTH ON WHAT 508 REQUIRES BASED ON THE WAY THE STRUCTURE IS INTERPRETED. 504 HAS ASSURED ACCESS FOR QUITE SOMETIME FOR OPEN 0062 AGENCIES. I THINK IT SHOULD BE QUITE CLEAR THAT A GOVERNMENT ACTIVITY WHETHER CONDUCTED ON A WEBSITE OR IN AN OFFICE IS A GOVERNMENT ACTIVITY SUBJECT TO 504 AND SO IT WILL BE APPROPRIATE FOR AN AGENCY TO RESPOND TO A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC QUERYING THEM ABOUT ACCESS. THIS WAS DONE BEFORE JUNE 21ST OR JUNE 25TH. IT WOULD BE AN INCORRECT ANSWER AND IT WOULD BE A NONSTARTER AND IT WOULD BE A WAY TO STIFLING THE KIND OF LANGUAGE WHICH IS OKAY WE RECOGNIZE THE PROBLEM MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC, HOW CAN WE RESOLVE THIS PROBLEM. THAT'S THE KIND OF DIALOGUE WE NEED TO MAKE HAPPEN. KEITH MADE THE POINT THAT ACCESSIBILITY WHILE NOT SPECIFICALLY FUNDED, NEITHER WAS WEBSITE DEVELOPMENT. IT WAS SIMPLY SOMETHING DONE BECAUSE AGENCIES NEED TO BE AWARE OF WHAT THE NEEDS OF THE PUBLIC ARE. DISABILITY ACCESS IS A PART OF THAT JUST AS SERVING THE PUBLIC IS A PART OF THE GOVERNMENT AGENCY'S RESPONSIBILITY. >>MICHAEL: PAUL, THAT TIES INTO ONE OF THE QUESTIONS FROM A VIEWER OUT THERE. BASICALLY THEY ARE FRUSTRATED WITH ACCESS ON A PARTICULAR GOVERNMENT WEBSITE. THEY WANT TO KNOW WHAT CAN WE DO TO GO FORWARD WITH A 0063 COMPLAINT? YOU PREACHED PERHAPS THAT'S NOT THE BEST WAY TO GO FORWARD, BUT THERE ARE SEVERAL QUESTIONS HERE FROM MUST BE I WOULD ASSUME VIEWERS WHO ARE PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES WHO ARE ASKING WHAT IF I DO WANT TO GO FORWARD WITH A COMPLAINT? CAN YOU GIVE KNEE SOME GUIDANCE AS TO WHERE, HOW, WHEN? >>PAUL: I WANT TO SAY A FEW WORDS AND KICK IT OVER TO KEITH FOR SPECIFICS HE MAY WANT TO HAVE. THE RESPONSIBILITY LIES WITH THE AGENCY. WHOEVER CONTROLS THAT WEBSITE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HANDLING THE COMPLAINTS AND TYPICALLY IT WOULD BE HANDLES WITH EVERY KIND OF CIVIL RIGHTS WITH THAT AGENCY. WITH THE LARGER AGENCIES, THERE IS AN OFFICE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS. WHAT I SAID BEFORE ABOUT CUSTOMER SERVICE I THINK IS CRITICAL, AND THAT IS THAT IT OUGHT TO BE EASY TO FIND ON A WEBSITE WHO YOU CAN GO TO WITH YOUR CONCERNS WHETHER THEY BE COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE SITE OR WHETHER THEY BE THE ISSUE OF FINDING OUT WHO I LOGICALLY PLAY WITH IF THAT'S THE RIGHT WAY TO GO. IT OUGHT TO BE THAT KIND OF CONTACT INFORMATION. WHILE 508 DOES NOT REQUIRE IT, IT HAS BEEN ON THE 0064 LIST RECENTLY, IF 508 DOESN'T REQUIRE IT, IT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS THAT YOUR WEBSITE SHOULD HAVE A CONTACT POINT EASILY ACCESSIBLE ON IT. THAT'S JUST DESIGN CUSTOMER SERVICE. KEITH, I DON'T KNOW, IS ANYONE LOGGING OR COLLECTING WHO THE OFFICES ARE THAT ONE SHOULD GO FOR? >>KEITH: I AGREE WITH WHAT PAUL SAID. CONTACT THE WEB MASTER BUTTON IS THERE AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE HIM TO LET THE WEB MASTER KNOW. I WILL GIVE YOU A LITTLE SHORT CUT TO GO TO. GO TO THE CHIEF INFORMATION OFFICER FOR THAT AGENCY AND SEND THEM THE URL AND LET THEM KNOW THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT COMPLIANT. THEY CAN GO TO WWW.CIO.GOV, AND IT'S AN ACCESSIBLE SITE AND YOU CAN GO INTO FEDERAL AGENCY COMMITTEE MEMBERS AND CIO. YOU CAN GO FIND THE SMALL AGENCIES AS WELL. I WOULD -- I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO HAVE THE AGENCY FIRST TRY THEIR BEST TO WORK OUT ACCESSIBILITY. WE DON'T NEED TO NECESSARILY GO THROUGH THE COMPLAINT PROCESS TO PROVIDE RESULTS THAT WE NEED TO PROVIDE SO I WOULD WORK WITH THE PEOPLE THAT HOST THOSE PAGES 0065 AND LET THEM KNOW. SOMETIMES IT MAY BE AN ISSUE UNKNOWN TO THEM AND THEY WERE CERTAIN TO STRAIGHTEN THE WAY IF THEY KNOW HOW TO. >>SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ISN'T OBVIOUS A LOT IS THERE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE. POSSIBLY IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO GO THROUGH THE COMPLAINT PROCESS. NEXT TIME A COMPLAINT COMES IN, WHOEVER IT IS THAT PROCESSES COMPLAINTS IS GOING TO HAVE A DATABASE OF WHAT'S BEEN COMPLAINED ABOUT BEFORE. I THINK THE ACT REQUIRES, THE ACT ITSELF REQUIRES THAT YOU USE THE 504 PROCESS AND MAKE IT RESPONSIVE TO 508 ISSUES. >>KEITH: I SHOULD ADD ON TO LET EVERYBODY THE VOLUME, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS 35 MILLION WEB PAGES AND OVER 20,000 WEBSITES AND WHEN YOU GET DOWN TO THE ACTUAL CONTENT MANAGER YOU PROBABLY HAVE OVER 100,000 CONTENT MANAGERS, PEOPLE PRODUCING THIS MATERIAL AND PUTTING IT OUT SO IT IS A LARGE PROCESS FOR US TO GO THROUGH. >>MICHAEL: MAYBE WHEN YOU THINK OF THOSE TYPES OF NUMBERS, IT FITS RIGHT IN WITH THE NEXT QUESTION. ONE OF THE PANELISTS MENTIONED THAT CONGRESS HAD NOT APPROPRIATED MONEY FOR 508. 0066 WHAT IS THE PANEL'S ESTIMATE OF WHAT THE ACTUAL COSTS WILL BE BOTH FOR ENFORCEMENT AND FOR PRODUCT MODIFICATIONS? ANYONE WANT TO JUMP RIGHT IN? >>KEITH: I CAN START. U.S. ACCESS BOARD HAD A CALCULATION AND THE DOLLAR IMPACT BURDEN OF THE IMPLEMENTATION OF 508 AND IT RANGED ANYWHERE FROM A COUPLE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS TO ABOUT A BILLION DOLLARS TO IMPLEMENT SECTION 508. NOW, THAT HAS TO BE OVERTIME AND SPREAD OVER THE AGENCY SO YOU CAN EXPECT THAT THAT MAY BE IN THE BALLPARK. I DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE A REAL GOOD HANDLE ON T MUCH OF IT DEPENDS ON HOW FAST AGENCIES TURN OVER THEIR I.T. AND IT'S THAT TIME WHEN THE 508 ISSUE IS GOING TO COME UP IN THE PROCUREMENT THAT THEY NEED TO MAKE THOSE SYSTEMS COMPLIANT. >>MICHAEL: ANYONE ELSE WITH A COMMENT? >>REX: I WOULD POINT OUT THERE WAS A 10-1 VARIABLE FIGURE THAT WAS VERY BROAD. THE MECHANISM USED TO DETERMINE THAT WAS PRETTY UNSCIENTIFIC. IT WAS BASICALLY LOOKING AT, I FORGET WHAT THE BASIS WAS BUT IT WASN'T GOING OUT AND TRYING TO STUDY THIS INFORMATION. 0067 IT WAS TRYING TO ABSTRACT THE INFORMATION. >>PAUL: IT'S DIFFICULT TO PUT A NUMBER ON THESE QUESTIONS. FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, THOSE OF US WITH DISABILITIES HAVE BEEN BEARING A PRETTY HIGH BURDEN FROM INACCESSIBLE TECHNOLOGY AND INACCESSIBLE WEB SENSE. >>CHRISTOPHER: THE FIGURES ARE AT FEDERAL REGISTER 805.2.1 AND 2. THE FIGURES THERE NOT ONLY ESTIMATE HOW IT'S GOING TO COST BUT HOW MUCH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO GAIN. THE UPPER GROUND COST IS ABOUT A BILLION DOLLARS, UPPER COST GAIN IS $500 MILLION IN GAIN. IT'S GOING TO COST US MORE THAN WE ARE GOING TO GET OUT OF THIS IN A DOLLARS AND CENTS SENSE. WHAT I TRY TO EXPLAIN TO MY CLIENTS IS DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS AS A DOLLARS AND CENTS ISSUE. UNDERSTAND THIS AS A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE. THAT THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY, MEMBERS OF THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY WANT TO BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE FULLY AS MEMBERS OF SOCIETY AND IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE SENSITIVITY THE VERY SENSITIVE POLITICAL QUESTIONS THAT SURROUND SECTION 508 BECOME MUCH CLEARER AND THE DISCUSSION BECOMES EVEN. THE EXAMPLE THAT CAME UP IS THE MICROPURCHASE EXEMPTION. 0068 SALES UP TO $2,500 ARE EXEMPTED. EVERYTHING BELOW $2,500 IS EXEMPT IN GENERAL IN PROCUREMENT. WELL, AS SOON AS THAT EXEMPTS CAME OUT OVER THE HORIZON I WAS HEARING FROM MEMBERS OF THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY THAT THAT IS REALLY AWFUL, THAT SOMETHING BELOW $2,500 COULD BE EX-DEATH PENALTY BECAUSE WHAT IF A DESKTOP IS PURCHASED. THERE IS A DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE PROCUREMENT COMMUNITY AND THE -- POINTS OF ANGER DON'T ARISE. >>KEITH: THE MICROPURCHASE EXCEPTION, ONLY APPLIES TO MARKET MICROPURCHASES SO THAT MEANS IF A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE USES A CHARGE CARD TO GO TO STAPLES OR COMPUSA TO BUY AN OPEN MARKET PURCHASE BUT IT CANNOT BE USED TO MAKE A PURCHASE AGAINST AN EXISTING CONTRACT OR FEDERAL SUPPLY SCHEDULE, THAT'S JUST USING THE PURCHASE CARD FOR THE BILL PAYMENT METHOD, IT'S NOT A MIKE ROW PURCHASE AND THAT'S ONE OF THE MISUNDERSTANDINGS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN PROMULGATED THROUGHOUT THIS, SO IT'S NOT A GENERAL EXCEPTION FOR UNDER $2,500. IT'S ONLY THOSE OPEN MARKET ONES AND IT DOES SUNSET ON JANUARY 2003, AND THE THOUGHT BEHIND THAT IS BY THAT TIME, WE BELIEVE THAT THE INDUSTRY MAY START 0069 HAVING A DEGREE OF COMFORT LEVEL WITH THEIR LEVEL OF 508 OFFERING AND THEY MAY LABEL THEIR PACKAGES SO THAT WHEN YOU ARE IN A COMPUTER STORE AND YOU CAN TELL IF IT HAS SOME 508 COMPLIANCE WITH IT, OTHERWISE, TODAY YOU CAN'T BECAUSE THE CONTAINERS HAVE NO MENTION OF 508 AND IT'S PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DO. >>JULIE: KEITH, HOW WOULD A PERSON WITH A DISABILITY AS A PRACTICAL MATTER WHETHER A PIECE OF EQUIPMENT FALLS UNDER THAT EXCEPTION IN THE WORKPLACE? I DON'T SUSPECT THERE IS A TAG ON THE EQUIPMENT THAT SAYS YES, THIS WAS UNDER THE MICROPURCHASE EXCEPTION? >>KEITH: YES, WELL, WE ARE ASKING FOR ALL DOCUMENTATION FOR EXCEPTIONS TO BE PLACED IN PROCUREMENT FILES FOR UNDO YOU BURDEN AND NONAVAILABILITY, SO THE REAL QUESTION WAS HOW WAS THAT PIECE OF EQUIPMENT, THAT PIECE OF SOFTWARE ACQUIRED. WAS IT ACQUIRED AFTER JUNE 21ST OF 2001, AND DID IT HAVE AN EXCEPTION. NOW, PRACTICALLY I MUST SAY THAT MOST HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE AGENCIES IS NOW ON LANDS, AND ON THAT ACQUIRED ACROSS THE COUNTER IN THAT WAY. MOST MULTIUSE SOFTWARE IS ACQUIRED THROUGH LARGE CONTRACTS, SEAT MANAGEMENT CONTRACTS, IDIQS THAT 0070 COVER THOSE AGENCIES, DESKTOPS, LAPTOPS, HARDWARE, AND SOFTWARE. ALL OF THOSE MECHANISMS ARE COVERED IN A STRONG WAY SO THAT NEW PURCHASES, TASK ORDERS, DELIVERY ORDERS STARTING ON JUNE 25TH, MUST BE 508 COMPLIANT OR HAVE AN EXCEPTION ON THOSE NEW PURCHASES. SO IT'S GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE, BUT I SHOULD SAY THAT I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S ONE THAT'S GOING TO HAVE BEEN ABUSED. THERE IS ANOTHER MECHANISM TO SAFEGUARD AND THAT IS MANY CHIEF INFORMATION OFFICERS HAVE PROCESSES TO ENSURE PRODUCTS BEFORE THEY PUT ON THE LAND OR GO THROUGH CERTAIN SAFEGUARDS. FOR INSTANCE, WE HAVE FREE WARE NOW THAT WE CAN PICK UP AND AN EMPLOYEE JUST CAN'T PICK UP FREE SOFTWARE OR BUY A PIECE OF SOFTWARE AND HAVE IT PUT ON THEIR AGENCY LOCAL AREA NETWORK. IT GOES THROUGH A VETTING PROCESS, AND THOSE CAME TYPE OF CHECKING POINTS CAN CHECK FOR 508. >>REX: MANY OF THE VENDORS ARE PUTTING 508 FIXES INTO THEIR NEW SOFTWARE AND FOR THE MOST PART, THAT REQUIRES INFRASTRUCTURES THAT ARE REALLY UP TO DATE AND MANY OF THE AGENCIES DON'T HAVE UP TO DATE INFRASTRUCTURES SO THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO UTILIZE THE NEW STUFF WHICH IS COMING OUT WHICH IS 508 COMPLIANT. 0071 IS THERE ANY PLAN ON COPING WITH THAT PROBLEM? >>KEITH: WELL, I THINK ALL OF THESE NEW REQUIREMENTS THAT COME DOWN, EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY BE PERMANENTLY UNFUNDED, FRANKLY, THERE IS OPPORTUNITIES WHEN ALL OF THESE COME DOWN AND Y2K, WHAT YOU SAW WAS MANY AGENCIES DECIDED TO ABANDON THE NON-Y2K COMPLIANT PRODUCTS AND BUY NEW PRODUCTS, NEW PLATFORMS IN ORDER TO HOST THAT, MAKE THAT WORK OUT AND WHAT YOU MAY FIND ON 508 IS BECAUSE IT IS A MULTILAYERED PRODUCT PROBLEM, YOU HAVE YOUR HARDWARE, YOU HAVE GOT YOUR OPERATING SYSTEMS. YOU HAVE GOT YOUR APPLICATIONS AND THEY ALL NEED TO WORK TOGETHER, BUT YOU MAY FIND SOME PREMATURE REPLACEMENTS OF EXISTING EMBEDDED SYSTEMS IN ORDER TO MAKE 508 WORK BETTER WHEN IT'S BEING IMPLEMENTED SO YOU CAN GET SOME MARKETPLACE BENEFITS OUT OF THIS THAT OTHERWISE WEREN'T SEEN. >>REX: ANOTHER THING THAT HAPPENED IN Y2K WAS ONCE THE NEW STUFF WAS PUT IN, THEN THEY DECIDED THEY WERE NOT GOING TO BUY ANYTHING THAT MIGHT UPSET THE DELICATE PAYROLL THAT THEY HAD AS THEY PROCEEDED TOWARDS NEW YEAR'S EVE. IN THE LAST THREE MONTHS OF 1999, THERE WAS NOT VERY MUCH NEW SOFTWARE INSTALLED. >>RANDY: PART OF YOUR QUESTION ASKED ABOUT THE 0072 POTENTIAL COST OF DEVELOPMENT. IT MAY NOT BE AS BAD AS PEOPLE ARE THINKING. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF GROUNDWORK AT THE OPERATING SYSTEM AND A.T. LEVEL WHEN IT GETS DOWN TO THE TECHNICAL NUTS AND BOLTS, YOU ARE NOT LOOKING AT REWRITES. IT'S FAIRLY SIMPLE TECHNICAL THINGS TO MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE. IT'S FINDING OUT WHAT THOSE THINGS ARE IS THE HARD PART. I WANT TO PUT A CAVEAT ON WHAT I SAID AN LINUX AND MACROOS. CONTACT THOSE COMPANIES DIRECTLY. THEY MAY HAVE PLANS IN THE WORKS OR MAYBE IP CALLS THAT ARE PART OF THE STANDARD SYSTEM THAT WILL WORK FOR YOU. >>CHRISTOPHER: LINUX IS DISBURSED ACROSS THE WORLD. WE SHOULD BE FRANK HERE. MICROSOFT IS WELL DOWN THE TRAIL IN TERMS OF SECTION 508 COMPLIANCE. LINUX WORLD WAS NOT. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION FOR THE MICROSOFT MONOPOLY. WE HAVE ONE BRANCH OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, REALLY BEATING THE STUFFING OUT OF 0073 MICROSOFT TRYING TO BREAK THE OPERATING SYSTEM MONOPOLY AND OTHER SECTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT PUSHING 508 WHICH WILL HELP BOLSTER THE MICROSOFT OPERATING MONOPOLY. THERE IS A DISCONNECT. WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND AND RECOGNIZE THAT DISCONNECT. >>MICHAEL: LET ME TAKE YOU TO AN AREA WE HAVEN'T TOUCHED ON BUT ONE THAT'S COME UP IN MANY OF THE DISCUSSIONS IN PREPARATION FOR JUNE 25TH, AND THAT IS, AND THIS PERHAPS WOULD BE FIRST TO KEITH, BUT OTHERS MAY WANT TO COMMENT, AND THAT IS ARE THERE STATE-SPECIFIC 508 REGULATIONS OR DO 508 REGULATIONS APPLY TO THE STATES? >>KEITH: THE LAW WAS WRITTEN TO APPLY TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND HOWEVER, THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION WILL MAKE A DETERMINATION WHETHER OR NOT 508 IS HAVES INVOKED WITH THE TECH ACT WHICH IS FUNDS THAT ARE PROVIDED OUT TO ESPECIALLY STATE UNIVERSITIES AND CURRENTLY SUBJECT TO A SECTION 504. SO THAT CALL IS BEING MADE BY THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND ONCE THAT RULING IS MADE, THEN WE'LL POST THAT ON THE SECTION 508.GOV WEBSITE. IN GENERAL, A NUMBER OF STATES ARE INTERESTED IN SECTION 508. THERE IS ONE STATE RIGHT NOW THAT IS, LOOKS LIKE THEY 0074 MAY BE ADOPTING IT IN TOTAL, AND WE ARE AWARE OF THE ISSUE OF, AS WAS MENTIONED EARLIER, NOT WANTING TO CONFUSE THE MARKETPLACE, ENTERING THE MARKETPLACE WITH MULTIPLE SOLUTIONS AND WE WOULD HOPE THAT STATES WOULD WORK WITH US. WE ALSO HAD CONTACTS FROM THE EU ABOUT SECTION 508. SO I KNOW THE ACCESS BOARD HAS HAD THESE DISCUSSIONS AND ARE OPEN TO THOSE KINDS OF THINGS WHERE IF WE NEED TO WORK WITH OTHER GOVERNMENTAL JURISDICTIONS, TO HAVE A SINGLE APPROACH IN THE PLATFORM THAT UNIFIES ACCESSIBILITY AND SIMPLIFIES IT FOR THE INDUSTRY, THEN THE GOVERNMENT IS DEFINITELY OPEN TO HAVING THOSE DISCUSSIONS. >>REX: INDUSTRY IS SUPPORTIVE OF THAT. I WONDER IF ALL OF THE STAKEHOLDERS FEEL THE SAME WAY. PAUL, CAN YOU COMMENT ON THAT, TOO? >>PAUL: YES. WE WOULD BE SUPPORTIVE OF MOVING TOWARD A STANDARD THAT WOULD APPLY NATIONALLY AND INTERNATIONALLY AS WELL. >>CHRISTOPHER: I TAUGHT A CLASS TO UNIVERSITY PROCUREMENT OFFICIALS ABOUT SECTION 508 AND THEY HAD NO IDEA WHAT IT WAS ABOUT. IT WAS LIKE TEACHING FRENCH TO SECOND GRADERS, START 0075 FROM SCRATCH. SO IF THE REQUIREMENT IS IMPOSED ON STATE UNIVERSITIES RECEIVING FEDERAL FUNDING, IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT TO GO FORWARD SLOWLY AND DELIBERATELY SO THAT THOSE STATE AND PROCUREMENT OFFICIALS HAVE A CHANCE TO CATCH UP. >>MICHAEL: JULIE? OKAY. THIS IS A QUESTION, TAKES US BACK TO SOME OF THE EARLIER DISCUSSION. IS THERE A CHECK LIST THAT CONSUMER CAN UTILIZE TO CHECK OFF A PRODUCT'S COMPLIANCE WITH 508, AND IF THERE ISN'T SUCH A CHECK LIST, IS THERE ANY GOVERNMENT AGENCY OR ANY INDUSTRY INITIATIVE TO TRY TO DEVELOP ONE? >>KEITH: I THINK SEVERAL OF US MIGHT ANSWER ON THIS ONE. INDUSTRY HAS WORKED WITH GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION TO HAVE A UNIFORM TEMPLATE. WE DON'T CALL IT A CHECK LIST BECAUSE AT THIS STAGE OF THE GAME WE DON'T THINK IT'S AS SIMPLE AS A CHECK MARK. THERE ARE SLOTTING GRADATIONS OF GRADE AND SOMETIMES THE PARTIAL COMPLIANCE HAS TO BE DISCUSSED AND HOW THE PARTICULAR COMPANY IS COMPLIANT OR IS PARTIALLY 0076 COMPLIANT. WE FELT THAT WAS IMPORTANT FOR SEVERAL REASONS, AND THAT IS WE WANTED TO HAVE A UNIFORM OPERATING ENVIRONMENT SO THAT EACH AGENCY WASN'T ASKING FOR THIS INFORMATION IN DIFFERENT WAYS. WE KNEW THAT THE FIRMS WOULD HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME RESPONDING TO RFP'S THAT WERE STRUCTURED 57 DIFFERENT WAYS AND SO WE HAVE ENCOURAGED THAT DEVELOPMENT TO OCCUR AND IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S DEVELOPING AND COMING FORWARD. THOSE PAGES WILL BE ACCESSIBLE THROUGH THE SECTION 508.GOV WEBSITE. THERE WILL BE A WAY FOR THE PEOPLE TO LINK THROUGH AND GO TO THE COMPANY SITE AND SEE THE COMPANY'S DECLARATION, REPRESENTATION OF HOW THEY ARE AND SOMEWHAT COMPLIANCE WITH SECTION 508 AND THEIR DEGREE OF COMPLIANCE AND EACH COMPANY WILL MAINTAIN THE UNIFORM TEMPLATE ON THEIR OWN PAGES AND KEEP IT UP TO DATE. >>REX: IT IS VOLUNTARY, THOUGH. >>KEITH: IT IS VOLUNTARY. >>REX: AND SOME COMPANIES CONSIDER THIS TO BE A COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE AND WE KEEP THAT AND PROVIDE IT TO THE GOVERNMENT ON A NONDISCLOSURE BASIS? >>KEITH: THEY THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE NEED 0077 TO, THE WAY WE STRUCTURE THE PROCUREMENT PROCESS IS THERE NEEDS TO BE A MARKET ASSESSMENT BEFORE THE REQUIREMENTS GO OUT IN THE RFP TO SHOW WHAT IS AVAILABLE IN THE MARKETPLACE AND WE SEE BY SEARCHING THESE TEMPLATES ACROSS VENDOR'S PAGES THAT IT'S THE WAY THAT THE REQUIRING ACTIVITY AND THE CONTRACTING OFFICE WOULD BE ABLE TO SEE THE STATE OF THE INDUSTRY AT THE PARTICULAR TIME WHEN THEY ISSUED THE SOLICITATION. >>CHRISTOPHER: THEY BUY THEM FROM THE VENDORS AS PACKAGES. WHAT REX HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS A TEMPLATE OR A LIST OF COMPLIANCE. YOU ARE A BUYER FROM THE NAVY. YOU WANT TO BUY A COMPLIANCE SYSTEM. YOU CLICK ON THE NAVY MARINE CORPS INTERNET SITE WHICH IS SPONSORED BY EDS. THEY PUT ON A DESKTOP SYSTEM, LET'S SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, IS DELL, SO YOU CLICK FROM EDS OVER TO THE DELL PAGE AND DELL MIGHT SAY OUR DESKTOPS ARE ACCESSIBLE BUT IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT IF THE MOUSE IS ACCESSIBLE, CLICK OVER TO THE MOUSE ICON. THERE IS INTENSE COMPETITION ABOUT THE ACCESSIBILITY BETWEEN COMPUTER MICE, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO POST THEIR INFORMATION BECAUSE THAT MIGHT LAUNCH A BIG PROTEST. 0078 IF THEY ADMIT THEY ARE NOT FULLY CLIENT THAT MIGHT ALLOW A MOUSE MANUFACTURER TO BRING A LITTLE BIT OF A PROCESS. THEY ARE GOING TO KEEP THE INFORMATION OFF THE WEB SO CONSUMER WILL START WITH EDS PAGE GO FOR THE DELL PAGE, MOUSE PAGE AND IT WON'T BE THERE. THIS IS THE EXAMPLE WHERE CONTEMPLATED BY THE LEGISLATION, PEOPLE WILL HOLD INFORMATION TIGHT BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID OF A POSSIBLE BID PROTEST. >>PAUL: I THINK THE OTHER CHALLENGE FOR PEOPLE IN THE AGENCY'S DOING THE REQUIREMENT WORK DOCUMENTS, WHEN I SAID BEFORE THAT THEY OUGHT TO BE OLD IN CHALLENGING ASSERTIONS THAT THEY ALSO PROBABLY OUGHT TO BE OLD AND CHALLENGING NONASSERTIONS, IT'S GOING TO BE HARD ADMITTEDLY FOR SOME, FOR MANY FOLKS TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO CLEAR OUT THE FOG OF WHAT THEY ARE BEING TOLD FROM AN ACCESSIBILITY STANDPOINT IF THEY ARE NOT AWARE OF WHAT CONSTITUTES ACCESSIBILITY. FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU ASK ABOUT THE VISUAL DISPLAY THAT COMES ON A PIECE OF HARDWARE, LET'S SAY A STAND ALONE DEVICE THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOW AND ARE SIMPLY TOLD THAT IT'S ACCESSIBLE AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT COLOR DIFFERENTIATION AND THINGS OF THAT SORT AND WHAT THE ELIMINATION LEVELS ARE. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO SORT THROUGH THE CLAIMS. 0079 THAT IS ONE OF THE CHALLENGES IN THIS ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE HARD TO GET THAT KIND OF INFORMATION ON A PRODUCT OR PRODUCT BASIS WHERE YOU CAN DO THE COMPARISONS. I THINK THAT'S WHERE SOME INVOLVEMENT WITH THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY WILL BE IMPORTANT, BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT THERE IS A GOOD AND EASY ANSWER TO THIS PROBLEM OF PROPRIETARY INFORMATION, WANTING COMPANIES TO COMPETE ON ACCESSIBILITY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, COMPANY'S RETICENCE TO BEING CHALLENGED OR TO HAVING A CHALLENGE SET UP FOR THEM IF THEY ACTUALLY ARE HONEST IN SAYING WE DON'T IMMEDIATE A PARTICULAR -- >>REX: I SEE THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT COIN. SOME COMPANIES SAID WE INTEND TO MAKE OURS ABSOLUTELY 508 COMPLIANT. THEREFORE, WE ARE GOING TO PUT OUR INFORMATION OUT THERE, THEREFORE, WE ARE GOING TO BE SELECTED QUICKER THAN SOMEONE ELSE WAS AND IT WILL BE USED AS A COMPETITIVE DISADVANTAGE. I THINK IT WORKS BOTH WAYS. BUT IF YOU KEEP QUIET, I'LL SAY I AM AND I'LL GET THE BUSINESS. >>MICHAEL: VERY SPECIFIC QUESTION ABOUT THE UNDUE BURDEN DETERMINATION. THE QUESTION COMES FROM A GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT 0080 OFFICER WHO ASKS IS IT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO SIGN OFF UNDUE BURDEN OR SINGLE INDIVIDUAL WITHIN THAT GOVERNMENT AGENCY? >>KEITH: THE UNDUE BURDEN DOCUMENTATION IS REQUIRED TO BE SIGNED BY AN OFFICIAL ACQUIRING ACTIVITY. THE PROCUREMENT OFFICER WILL HAVE TO ENSURE THAT THEY HAVE AN UNDUE BURDEN STATEMENT ADDRESSING EACH OF THE STANDARDS THAT'S WHERE THE PROCUREMENT IS NOT COMPLIANT, THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR DEVELOPING THAT STATEMENT AND THE APPROVAL OF IT IS AN ACCOUNTABLE OFFICIAL ON THE ACQUIRING ACTIVITY SIDE AND THERE WILL BE FURTHER EXPLANATION WHO THAT INDIVIDUAL IS IN THE FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS THAT WILL BE POSTED ON THE SECTION 508.GOV WEBSITE. WHAT WE ARE ENCOURAGING AGENCIES TO DO IS TO CONSIDER WHO IN THEIR AGENCIES MAY BE AT THE APPROPRIATE LEVEL. OBVIOUSLY, IT MAY NOT BE THE GS-4 WEB MASTER THAT'S DEVELOPING CONTENT TO SIGN THAT STATEMENT. IT IS AN ACCOUNTABLE OFFICIAL AND ALSO THOSE UNDUE BURDEN DOCUMENTATIONS NEED TO BE ROUTED TO A CENTRALIZED SOURCE. THE ONLY WAY A AGENCY WOULD KNOW LEVEL OF COMPLIANCE OR NONCOMPLIANCE IS FOR SOMEONE IN THE CIO'S OFFICE TO BE CAPTURING THE UNDUE BURDEN, THE NONAVAILABILITY 0081 DOCUMENTATION. WE ARE ASKING AGENCIES TO SET UP SYSTEMS TO TRANSMIT THOSE TO LOCATIONS KNOWING THAT DOWNSTREAM WE WILL HAVE TO REPORT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND REPORT 508 COMPLIANCE THAT THERE WILL BE AGENCIES TO RESPOND TO. >>KEITH: PAUL, CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHETHER UNDUE BURDEN IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE MET? >>PAUL: NO. I AM GOING TO PUNT ON THE UNDUE BURDEN QUESTION. GO AHEAD. >>CHRISTOPHER: WELL, I THINK THAT MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR AN AGENCY TO PROVE THERE IS AN UNDUE BURDEN. I THINK ONE OF THE INTERESTING QUESTIONS HERE, I THINK OF SECTION 508 LIKE THE BIG BANG. EVERYTHING OCCURS AT ONCE AS OF JUNE 25TH. THAT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO INSTITUTE IN TERMS OF STRATEGY. THINGS LIKE IMPLEMENTING PUTTING RAMPS ON BUILDING, THAT HAPPENED MANY YEARS. ONE OF THE INTERESTING APPROACHES TO UNDUE BURDEN MIGHT BE TO SAY THAT IT'S NOT AN ABSOLUTE UNDUE BURDEN FOR MAYBE THE NAVY MARINE CORPS INTERNET PROJECT. 0082 IT'S AN UNDUE BURDEN TO MAKE IT AS OF JUNE 25TH. MAYBE THERE IS A TIME ELEMENT HERE WHERE THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY COULD COMPROMISE WITH THE AGENCIES AND CONTRACTORS SAYING IT'S NOT UNDUE BURDEN TO ULTIMATELY REQUIRE THAT THESE THINGS BE ACCESSIBLE BUT IT WOULD BE UNDUE BURDEN TO MAKE IT IMMEDIATE. IF THERE IS A TIMED APPROACH TO IT, MAYBE THAT WOULD BE ONE WAY OF RESOLVING IT. SET OUT A WRITTEN IMPLEMENTATION PLAN FOR IMPLEMENTING ACCESSIBILITY OVER TIME. >>PAUL: THERE MAY BE SOME ROOM TO TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES. THERE IS CERTAINLY A RANGE OF EXCEPTIONS THAT AGENCIES ARE WILLING TO PURSUE. UNDUE BURDEN IS ONE OF THEM AND COMMERCIAL NONAVAILABILITY. THE PROBLEM IS THERE MAY NOT BE VERY MANY INSTANCES OF ABSOLUTE UNDUE BURDEN BUT THERE WILL BE INSTANCES OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE TO PUT THE LINE, HOW MUCH CHRIS MENTIONED EARLIER THAT SOME MUST MAKE THE EFFORT THAT BUY THE PRODUCT THAT BEST MEETS SOME OF THE ACCESSIBILITY CRITERIA, BEST MEETS THE ACCESSIBILITY CRITERIA. I THINK ONE OF THE CONCERNS I HAVE IS THAT AGENCIES WILL GIVE UP IN DISTRESS AND FRUSTRATION AND SIMPLY 0083 GO TO THAT COMMERCIAL NONAVAILABILITY FOR A WHILE BECAUSE IN FACT THEY WOULD PROBABLY BE JUSTIFIED IN MAKING THAT KIND OF DECISION. COMMERCIAL NONAVAILABILITY IS THERE BUT YOU OUGHT TO MAKE THE EFFORT TO CHALLENGE WHAT YOU NEED. IF THE MARKET FOR MEETING THE NEEDS OF PEOPLE WITH DISABILITY IF THEY WOULDN'T HAVE 508 BECAUSE THERE WOULDN'T BE A NEED TO BE DRIVING GOVERNMENT PROCUREMENT IN THIS DIRECTION SO I GUESS WHAT I WOULD CAUTION AGAINST IS OVERUSE OF SOME OF THESE EXCEPTIONS AND I WOULD PARTICULARLY BE CONCERNED ABOUT OVERUSE OF THIS COMMERCIAL NONAVAILABILITY EXCEPTION. A LOT OF THINGS AREN'T GOING TO BE AVAILABLE ON MAY 25TH BUT THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO BE MADE AVAILABLE AND NEVER WILL BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE PART OF WHAT 508 WAS SET OUT TO DO. >>MICHAEL: FOLLOW-UP QUESTION WITH ANOTHER STANDARD FROM THE ACCESS BOARD WHICH RELATES TO COMPARABLE ACCESS FOR PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES. FOR ANY PANEL MEMBER, THE QUESTION IS HOW WOULD ONE KNOW AND HOW WOULD ONE CERTIFY TO THAT? >>PAUL: THE WORD CERTIFICATION WAS USED EARLIER AND I AGREED WITH THE ANSWER THAT WAS MADE. YOU ARE ASKING FOR FIRMS TO PRESENT OR REPRESENT 0084 THEIR LEVEL OF COMPLIANCE WITH THE STANDARDS, HOWEVER, YOU CAN ONLY ASK FOR CERTIFICATIONS UNDER TWO CIRCUMSTANCES. ONE TAKES A LAW, WHILE THE OTHER ONE TAKES THE EXECUTIVE AT OMB TO ACQUIRE THAT. SECONDLY, THE PRODUCTS THAT ARE BEING OFFERED IT'S THROUGH THAT DISCUSSION WITH A TEMPLATE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HOW THE COMPANY SHOWS THAT THEIR PRODUCT IS COMPLIANT OR PARTIALLY COMPLIANT WITH THE STANDARDS, AND I BELIEVE REALLY THAT THE MARKET FORCES AS REX SAID, WILL WEIGH IN AND THOSE COMPANIES THAT HAVE VERY COMPLIANT PRODUCTS ARE GOING TO USE THAT TO THEIR MARKET ADVANTAGE, AND IT WILL RAISE THE DRAWER FOR THOSE THAT DON'T AND FOR SOME PERIOD OF TIME, THERE MAY BE SOME COMPANIES MAY WIN PROCUREMENTS BECAUSE THEY HAVE 508 COMPLIANCE AND THEIR COMPETITORS DON'T. >>MICHAEL: I WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU SEVERAL COMMENTS THAT CONTINUE TO COME IN FROM PEOPLE OBSERVING THIS WEBCAST. SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS HAVE ASKED WHETHER OR NOT THERE WILL BE ANOTHER WEBCAST THAT FOCUSED JUST ON THE ISSUES OF WEB ACCESSIBILITY. OTHERS ASKED WHETHER THERE WOULD BE A WEBCAST THAT COULD FOCUS NOT SO MUCH ON THE MANAGEMENT SIDE WHICH 0085 IS WHAT THEY CHARACTERIZED THIS WEBCAST ABOUT BUT FOCUSED MORE ON THE TECHNICAL SIDE OF 508, AND WOULD THERE BE A POSSIBILITY OF A WEBCAST THAT COULD FOLLOW ON THAT TOPIC, AND THERE WAS YET ANOTHER COMMENTOR WHO SUGGESTED THAT THIS WEBCAST WAS HELPFUL TO THEM. THEY WANTED TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THERE COULD BE A CONTINUING SERIES OF WEB CASTS THAT WOULD KEEP UP WITH INDUSTRY AND THE GOVERNMENT AND HOW THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY IS PARTICIPATING AND PERCEIVED THE PROGRESS TODAY. I KNOW FROM THE ITTATC STANDPOINT, THAT'S WHY ITTATC WAS CREATED, WAS TO BE THIS INFORMATION SOURCE, BE A CONTINUING COURSE FOR TRAINING, TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE ACTIVITIES, AMONG THE DIFFERENT STAKEHOLDERS WHICH YOU REPRESENT, AND WE WILL DO OUR BEST AT ITTATC TO ADD TO OUR SCHEDULE A SERIES OF WEB CASTS THAT, LIKE THIS ONE IN TERMS OF THE EARLY COMMENTORS LOOKS EXTREMELY FAVORABLE IN TERMS OF THE INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN PROVIDED. LET ME TURN IT BACK TO JULIE AND YOU CAN CLOSE UP FOR US. >>JULIE: WELL, FIRST LET ME THANK THE PANELISTS. I THINK IT'S BEEN A GREAT SESSION. I KNOW I HAVE LEARNED A LOT AND WE HAVE RAISED A LOT OF ISSUES THAT HOPEFULLY WE CAN CONTINUE TO WORK ON. 0086 WE HAVE ALSO GIVEN OUT A LOT OF RESOURCES THAT I HOPE WILL HELP PEOPLE. IN THE MEANTIME AS WE MAKE THIS TRANSITION INTO SECTION 508 COMPLIANCE. MICHAEL MENTIONED THAT WE HAVE ALREADY HAD SOME FEEDBACK AND WE WOULD LIKE TO ENCOURAGE YOU TO GIVE US YOUR FEEDBACK ON TODAY'S WEBCAST. AS WE SAID, WE WILL BE PLANNING MORE SO HELP US MAKE THE NEXT ONES BETTER. YOU CAN CONTINUE TO USE THE SAME METHODS THAT YOU USED TO SUBMIT YOUR QUESTIONS, PARTICULARLY THE EMAIL AND CHAT LINK AND THE PHONE LINK TO SEND US YOUR COMMENTS AND WE WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE T AGAIN, THANK YOU FOR A LIVELY DISCUSSION, INFORMATIVE AND FOR ALL OF YOUR PARTICIPATION.